Our guest today bought his first shares of News Corp at 12 years of age. Realising later in life that money through investing and business ventures would be his escape from conservative country living in rural NSW.
Investment properties in Australia and the US along with his own company are propelling Detrimental12 to reach financial independence in his early 30’s! With a net worth of over $800K he is well on his way.
- Financial Independence Australia Subreddit
- Detrimental’s Blog about US Real Estate for Aussie’s
- When Koalas attack!
Aussie Firebug: Hey guys welcome to another episode of the Aussie Firebug podcast the financial independent podcasts for Australians where I interview people that have already reached financial independence or are on their way. Now today’s guest is slightly different because it’s a guy that I haven’t done too much research on yea, his name is Detrimental but he goes by detrimental on the foreign boards. First of all I would just like to say welcome Detrimental and thank you so much for being on this podcast.
Detrimental: you’re very welcome, great to be here.
Aussie Firebug: now I guess we’ll start with, for the listeners that don’t really know your story and that’s me included really because I would try to go to a couple of your older posts
Detrimental: you tried to stalk me
Aussie Firebug: Laughing that’s exactly what I did I tried to stalk you just to see if I could get some good questions but why don’t you just take us back to the very beginning of your journey and how you got to where you are today.
Detrimental: yeah sure well interestingly I started on the path to financial independence long before I knew what the term was, so I was probably about 12 or 13 I grew up in a small country town in country New South Wales, yes I was probably about 12 or 13 when I wasn’t very happy i was quite depressed growing up and I knew I needed an escape and I knew the kind of money that would be my escape. so, from a very young age I was very interested in saving money, investing just trying to sort of escape from that……..unclear audio…
Aussie Firebug: did that come from influences in the family; was that a result of your surroundings at the time?
Detrimental: I was in a small rural town and it was just hard for me in high school and I just wanted to sort of get out. So I started for me when I was about 12 or 13. My parents had their own business; they had a small take away shop. I’ve had several uncles owning all sorts of business and investing in all of that as well. so I guess that’s where is all started for me I knew I knew that I wanted to just work and I didn’t know what financial independence was I just knew that I needed to get out and that’s where it kinda started for me, where it really picked up and where I really started researching financial independence was when I started a full-time job which was really just an office job strait out of university so I ended up moving to Canberra and my first office job straight out of University I was just incredibly depressed that first week I just kind of thought well this is my life now you know I’m stuck in this office job, what for the next you know 40 to 50 years and I just knew that I had to get out and that was when I really started focusing on getting out of the rat race.
Aussie Firebug: okay now so let’s rewind a little bit so, you are at high school and? You’re in this small country town and your escape that you are sort of think of is I need money to get out of this country town. So I guess your first idea was not so much because you didn’t really know what financial independence was right?
Detrimental: yeah that’s right.
Aussie Firebug: at that stage yes, so you just knew you needed money to live a better life which was outside this country town which you were not too happy in of course, and then you graduate, what year did you graduate in?
Detrimental: so, I graduate in I think it was around 2005 or 2006 am 27 now, yea 2005 to 2006 and the reason I guess is not because I was bullied in high school it was just because I was gay in a small country town
Aussie Firebug: all right
Detrimental: and from quite a religious family so that’s why I wanted to get out, yes I graduated in about 2005 to 2006 and my way of getting out was actually to go to University.
Aussie Firebug: was that in Canberra?
Detrimental: that was in Canberra yes.
Aussie Firebug: oh, cool and what was that experience like, because depend on what your definition of small country town is but I definitely ……..country town but I know that would be tough man definitely like I could definitely understand how that could be rough, so you go to University in Canberra and what was that like?
Detrimental: yeah it’s great like just what I expected and you know it was a great time and I don’t use my university degree now but I definitely don’t regret going
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: yes so it was good, it is good and I am still in Canberra at the moment so after University like I said I got this office job and it wasn’t for me, I just could not see myself working in an office for Forty –to e 50 years regardless of what I was doing so I ended up moving into the hospitality industry or back into the hospitality industry
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: so I ended up moving back into the hospitality industry, the physical side of hospitality as well as sort of the management side of hospitality
Aussie Firebug: yes.
Detrimental: and I definitely preferred that than working in an office but it really helped me to focus on achieving financial independence early in life.
Aussie Firebug: yeah, so if you graduated in 2005 depending on how long your university course was it made you started full-time work, what? 2010 2009 or something like that?
Detrimental: no because it took me a little longer than usual I think I started 2010
2010 okay cool.
Detrimental: full-time work so it’s been five years now
Aussie Firebug: yeah and so were you saving, did you have like part-time jobs leading up to this point?
Detrimental: yeah absolutely I was a very unusual child, so I bought my first lot of shares when I was 12 years old.
Aussie Firebug: yeah right, what did you buy?
Detrimental: I bought news Corp. News Corporation when they were listed in Australia, no idea why my dad read the paper and subscribe so I thought that’s a good investment I would buy news Corp.
Aussie Firebug: that’s funny so 12 years old spend his money on shares
Aussie Firebug: any influence from your parents at all?
Detrimental: no no
Aussie Firebug: so you just always had that mindset, you were just always a good saver and you wanted to just grow your money and at this stage were you still thinking at this stage even as well that you needed money to get out and was that sort of another push to by those shares or was it just a fun thing with you just wanting to dip your toes in?
Detrimental: it definitely wasn’t a fun thing I mean it turned out to be fun but it was a more I need money how do I make money let’s see if I we can make some money and I am going to become rich from the share markets.
Aussie Firebug: ok, cool
Detrimental: in truth I have probably lost more money than I made in the share market because I don’t know what I’m doing but that’s how it started when I was 12 moving to Canberra when I was at Uni I actually had about four or five different jobs I was working nonstop it actually help me get through University. I completely paid off my x debt.
Aussie Firebug: nice
It helped pay for my life and…………….. savings and I went traveling every year
Aussie Firebug: cool
Detrimental: so I’ve always been, some of my friends say I work too much.
Aussie Firebug: yeah right, so you’ve always been good with money?
Detrimental: yeah, yeah
Aussie Firebug: right so I can definitely relate to that brutal first week of work in an office, I have been working in an office for 4 ½ years and that first week probably even that first year is pretty brutal. I spoke about this on the other podcast you always you know sort of the hours you meant to be working full-time but it’s not until you start doing it and waking up and going to work and coming back and getting into the routine that you realize how much time you actually spent at work and away from the people that you love so I can definitely relate to that.
Detrimental: yeah absolutely
Aussie Firebug: so, yes you do the first week at work you realize is not for you, if you don’t mind me asking so we are talking 2010 at this stage?
Detrimental: 2010 that’s right.
Aussie Firebug: 2010 what’s your net worth? At 2010 if you don’t mind my asking?
No no no, it’s no problem at all just off the top of my head it would be very hard to tell you but I would say it would be probably a good saving probably about 20 or $30,000.
Aussie Firebug: where?
Detrimental: it’s a pretty decent amount considering I have……………… for Uni
Detrimental: I just paid off my hex debt so 2010 my net worth was about 20 or $30,000 and I was just gearing up to buy my first house as well around that time
Aussie Firebug: great okay. Tell us about that
Detrimental: My parents were into property renovation and remember while I was growing I use to go to auctions with my dad buying houses renovating them and renting them out.
Aussie Firebug: right so he was a real estate investor?
Detrimental: he was a real estate investor? Definitely not on Sydney and Melbourne level you know this was this was a small country town don’t forget.
Aussie Firebug: sure
Detrimental: but it’s just weekends I spent at auctions with my dad he was a real estate investor along with his own business and it is always ingrained to me as a child as I think it was many Australians to buy a house, you must buy a house or if you’re going to buy a house save for a deposit buy a house so it was just always ingrained into me that I needed to buy a house.
Aussie Firebug: the great Australian dream
Detrimental: yeah absolutely so, not many weeks ago, by the way my dad would not send me links to these houses available for sale in ………. That he thought were good so.
Aussie Firebug: sort of drilled into you at a young age buy yourself a house, set yourself up for life you know as I’m sure my parents would definitely said that as well and I’m sure a lot of people listening would have the same view it’s definitely an Australian thing I’m sure that other countries do it as well but buy a house set yourself up for life you know
Aussie Firebug: so Australian so I have continued
Detrimental: It’s an Australian dream and I think that is one reason that helps to prop up the property market so you have all these economist and everyone saying that the property is overvalued and there’s a bubble and all of that they do actually and while I think there’s is a bubble they do actually failed to take into account that there is that Australian dream to own your own property and everyone wants to get into the property market.
Aussie Firebug: definitely, that’s going to be one of my questions to you so……….. laughing
Aussie Firebug: we will definitely get to that in a minute but I just wanted to stick with your journey so that’s an incredible net worth I have to say straight off the bat first of all to be in the positive to begin with. Once you are straight out of University not many people can say that they were positive straight out of University so credit to you.
Detrimental: thank you.
Aussie Firebug: so talk us where you went from there
Detrimental: so I was a bit unhappy being in this office job, from there I went to one of my previous employer when I was working casually during Uni it was a hospitality job as I said they were actually looking for a manager, function manager to take over catering operation in their business
Aussie Firebug: Yep
Detrimental: I sort of approached them and funny thing it was actually slightly less money than what I was making at the office, so I actually went backwards a little bit and I approach them for a job and I ended up getting the job there with them so I was doing hospitality management I guess you could say
Aussie Firebug: Yep
Detrimental: and I was in that role for about four years in that time I again worked a lot, saved a lot I got I guess promotions you could say because I was doing a great job still working a lot of overtime so I was in that job for four years and then from there I actually went into business with my former employers and open up my own café and catering business with them. so that’s what I’m doing at the moment and that was two years ago.
Right and you are still working in that?
Detrimental: yeah that’s right so I’m actually managing that business as well.
Aussie Firebug: cool man so that brings us up to today. Now I know because I have thought of it… Laughing has read other comments, so your 27 you say?
Detrimental: that’s right
And you are on track to be financially independent at 30 is that right?
Detrimental: I am on track yes to be financially independent at 30 but I did set my goals at 32
Aussie Firebug: 32?
Detrimental: so I’m still on track within three years to be financially independent
Aussie Firebug: well now that is incredible, talk us through to your investment. So obviously in 2010 your network is 30 grand then you started this job at this catering company?
Aussie Firebug: talk us to what you buy from then on and how you got to this point now and what is your net worth at the moment and how did you get to that point?
Detrimental: okay so as I said back in 2010 I bought my first property in a small country town
Aussie Firebug: New South Wales?
Detrimental: yeah that’s right that was my first investment
Aussie Firebug: Yep
From then I had always been buying and selling shares but as I said have probably lost more money than I’ve made you know I just thought of it i love for buying shares basically.
Aussie Firebug: so you pick shares right, like you do the research on the company and you try to pick individual shares?
Detrimental: yeah my research probably involves about five minutes of reading about it online and then buying a company. But I have changed now to ETX………….. [14:42.9] but Conversation
Aussie Firebug: so you do like a conversation, yeah sure sure
Detrimental: then I did something really interesting and I actually bought a property in the United States
Aussie Firebug: wow cool.
Detrimental: So I ended up studying the United States market for about six months and I really did my research. my first holiday from my full-time job, my very first holiday most people would take it off and go traveling I actually travel to the United States in order to set of my United States company and a Bank account.
Aussie Firebug: wow!
Detrimental: in order to purchase a property over there because as you know there was a massive property crash
Aussie Firebug: yeah
And you could pick up a good property at a very good price
Aussie Firebug: definitely
Detrimental: and back in 2010 the Australian dollar was actually buying $1.09 US so any money that you transferred over you got basically 9% extra to spend.
Aussie Firebug: yeah and I remember because, sorry to interrupt you, I was on holiday at the end of 2012 in America and I remember going there and I’m thinking man this is such a good opportunity I just didn’t have the capital at that stage in my life to really do anything but I remember thinking like so many people can clean up here the dollars is over party it was like a dollar $1.03 when we went and I remember looking, because I was always interested in real-estate myself and I remember looking at a few houses in California and basically everywhere we went and I’m thinking oh my God! You know it’s basically a dollar for dollar at the moment and check out these houses it’s like a $130,000 it’s like a mansion
Aussie Firebug: it’s oh my god
Detrimental: it’s crazy
Aussie Firebug: yea that is one of my biggest sorts of regret but I just didn’t have the money, like I didn’t have the money saved.
Detrimental: and I mean you can’t I mean there’s opportunity all the time it’s not, people say you’re so lucky no I wasn’t lucky I actually studied for six months
Aussie Firebug: yeah definitely
Detrimental: opportunity happens all the time
Aussie Firebug: Yep absolutely
Detrimental: so buying the that US property, I still actually own it at the moment it have not increase in value that much, it has increased in value a little bit but as you know Australian dollar is now $.75 so on the currency exchange alone it has increased by 30%
Aussie Firebug: wow!
Detrimental: it hasn’t been without its struggle is definitely a lot of work
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: sort of………. [17:15.6] International property
Aussie Firebug: yeah so what does that involved I wouldn’t even know because I’ve got half sided ………. [17:22.8] Company entrusts in Australia before but I wouldn’t have the slightest idea how to purchase a property in America, can you just walk us through that a little bit, did you have an agent over there?
Detrimental: yeah okay so I studied up a lot I read a lot online. Actually I wrote a small blog about it it’s probably still out there I could probably find it for you
Aussie Firebug: yeah I’ll put it in the show [17:42.3]
Detrimental: yea no problem I will find it for you on how to buy a US property and basically you have to go to America first of all, you need to set up a Bank account in the United States
Aussie Firebug: in person?
Detrimental: you can only do that when you’re physically there, yea something to do about some new legislation that they introduce post-9/11 you physically need to be there to open a Bank account
Aussie Firebug: that’s a good excuse
Detrimental: absolutely yeah
Aussie Firebug: I think you could probably claim it on tax, can you as a business expense?
Detrimental: well you can claim it against the income from the property.
Aussie Firebug: ok, yeah cool.
Detrimental: as an expense of property maintenance.
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: and then you need to find yourself an attorney, so an attorney over in the US is what we call a solicitor
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: you need to set up a company over there so you need to find an accountant
Aussie Firebug: so how come you need to set up a company?
Detrimental: you don’t need to set up a company you can purchase it in your own name it’s just a lot easier, yea the accountant explained it better that’s how most of them do it over there.
Aussie Firebug: okay sure sure.
Detrimental: they set up a limited liability company to buy properties and things like that and then I actually found what’s called a turnkey agency.
Aussie Firebug: I’ve heard about these yeah
Detrimental: so it’s an agency in the US that buys…. and they sprung up a lot during the financial crisis in the property bubble, they by old properties …. Renovations, foreclosures all of that, they actually renovate it themselves and then they turn key it and sell it on to an investor
Aussie Firebug: right
Detrimental: so that’s how I bought the property. What that meant was I got the property that was already renovated so I did not have to worry about that. In a good location I just had to pay slightly more than market value for it because obviously they need to make money
Aussie Firebug: sure
Detrimental: and I didn’t have time to search for properties you know search for painters and carpet people and people to renovate for me. I could just buy a property that was already renovated and then rent it out from there. So it was a lot of work but it was definitely worth it
Aussie Firebug: did you get a loan from an Australian Bank or in an American Bank?
Detrimental: I got a loan in an American Bank.
Aussie Firebug: what’s the deposit on that, how much did they make you pay?
Detrimental: So it was a bit different so I had to pay for the property value in its entirety $60,000 dollars
Aussie Firebug: the whole property 60 grand laughing, laughing
Detrimental: yeah, I had to borrow about $15,000 which I did from my parents, I know not everyone has the same opportunity as me to borrow that money from my parents, they are definitely not wealthy at all they are middle-class people but they allowed me borrow that money and I have completely paid them back. So I had to buy the property as a whole first and then go to the Bank and get a loan and I actually got a loan for 60% of the property’s value.
Aussie Firebug: sorry to interrupt. So you have the purchase the property completely so you have to put down a 60 grand is that what you’re saying?
Detrimental: that’s right there may be ways to get a loan I just did not go down that path because I thought it might have been a big struggle.
Aussie Firebug: aah
Detrimental: particularly after the financial crisis
Aussie Firebug: : sure yea
Detrimental: it was just much easier and much quicker to just purchase the property; this is a property that’s about $65,000.
Aussie Firebug: how many bedrooms
Detrimental: three bedrooms
Aussie Firebug: well that’s so crazy and is being renovated 60 grand phh.
Detrimental: yeah and again as I said I paid slightly above market price, this was in the ……… [21:23.9] this was absolute in the bottom end and I slightly paid above market price for this property.
Aussie Firebug: that’s awesome. So you paid the whole thing and then you got a loan so you almost got like an equity loan from the house?
Detrimental: that’s right yes
Aussie Firebug: okay so just rewinding slightly, so you bought the first house in a Australia in the country town
Aussie Firebug: and what was the deposit you put on that?
Detrimental: it was a 10% deposit so it was $16,000.
Aussie Firebug: Rights so 160 grand 10% deposit, know did you use money that you had saved whilst at union and working for that one?
Aussie Firebug: Ok, so you got that one that was at?
Detrimental: This was at the start of the year when I had just finished Uni
Aussie Firebug: yeah, and was the negatively geared or positively geared?
Detrimental: it was negatively geared to start with but only for the first year because I had a big enough saving to have that money in an offset account.
Aussie Firebug: Ha, got you yea, so you put 10% down it have to have had relatively strong cash flow if it was turned into positive after one year
Aussie Firebug: and then you put all your spear money in an offset and then this one so that’s 2011 or 2010.
Detrimental: Two Thousand and ten 2010.
Aussie Firebug: and then how long until you buy the US one?
Detrimental: I believe just off the top of my head sorry I think it was the same year, like just so I bought it I think January 2010 the country property and then I think it was November that year the US property so it’s almost a full year difference.
Aussie Firebug: you cool
Detrimental: yes within a year
Aussie Firebug: and you pulled out all the funds from the offset to buy the US one?
Detrimental: that’s right
Aussie Firebug: with the 15 K from your parents which you paid back
Detrimental: yes that’s right.
Aussie Firebug: okay cool cool
Detrimental: and of course during the year I had savings as well from the job. So I was working full-time in the hospitality job and then I also had another part-time job of course.
Aussie Firebug: you are busy, busy this is awesome
Detrimental: I am busy
Aussie Firebug: so you’re doing lot two properties in one year awesome, so how is the cash flow like on this US property, what was it renting for?
Detrimental: so the cash flow on the US property before expenses was 16 to 17% return after expenses which I think is the main thing you should consider it was about 12% so I was getting about a 12% return.
Aussie Firebug: so 12% yield on…. Well that is high.
Detrimental: well I mean yes and no, it is high but the property value isn’t worth much and it is a lot of effort to maintain I certainly don’t regret buying it but the amount of work you do for 12% yield some would not be able to do that some would not be bothered with it basically.
Aussie Firebug: do you have a property manager in both?
Detrimental: so I had a property manager but yes I still own the US one I had since sold the country one
Aussie Firebug: okay and we get to that in a minute, what made the US one so hard to manage? Because I love properties myself but I don’t really get the odd complain here and there but I would say…
Detrimental: so when I first bought the property there was some issues with the company I bought it off what had happened, and it was very had to get information because no one was looking after it properly they property manager had in place actually went out of business so it was very hard to get information
Aussie Firebug: right
Detrimental: the tenant had left the property
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: and then I believe there was a breaking into the property.
Aussie Firebug: oh
Detrimental: and it was very hard to get this information and then there was a breaking into the property the company found another tenant shortly after the company went bust. so it was a hard to get information, so it was a struggle there to start with, I have since found another management company who has managers it since and they have done a fantastic job and I had the same tenant in there now for several years three years I think and they are doing a great job but it’s just the legal requirements paying the taxes is a bit hard you know doing it internationally is always hard you know when the counsel rates come in they put a posting to Australia by the time I received the counsel rates notice almost always overdue so there’s a little bit of extra interest I have to pay and it’s quite difficult to pay that as well half of the time their website isn’t working I can’t just go into the office and pay you know on the website they have got…… If their website is down because it’s a small country it’s a small sort of County website
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: if their website is down just going to the office to pay and of course and of course you can go into the office to pay so there is just things that are hard to do when you’re not there to manage it yourself.
Aussie Firebug: and the time difference I’m sure
Detrimental: yeah absolutely the time difference and you know you can’t just pick up the phone and make a phone call you’re got to schedule it in and you know it’s difficult that way
Aussie Firebug: yeah have you considered because I know my counsel rates I just get the agent to pay them with the property manager, I don’t know it works in America but I don’t know something maybe to consider.
Detrimental: yea absolutely getting them to look after it so all correspondence go to…………..
Detrimental: yeah. Yeah that’s pretty much what I do the only thing that I take care of myself, only thing is insurance on the property that’s the only thing I made sure of because that’s the one thing I feel like if the counsel rates don’t get paid and they get overdue and you get billed for it or something like that, I can sort…………..[27:32.4] pick up that and I can always fire the agent and get another one but if the insurance isn’t paid on time and something get wrecked in the property or it burns down or I find out my insurances is lapsed or something then I’m stuffed you know what I mean.
Aussie Firebug: yea, So that’s the one thing I never take my finger off the pulse everything else I push to the agent but the insurance I make sure that I have the dates set in my alarms and everything and I paid that myself and it only takes bloody five minutes to pay that’s the only thing I ever do myself and then everything else goes through the agent, everything like buddy calls, minutes everything goes through them I figure you know they are getting paid pretty much just received the rent and pass it on to me
Aussie Firebug: cool, so cash flow while you had a few headaches at the start
Aussie Firebug: now this is at the end of 2010 do they have stamp duty or anything like that over there?
Detrimental: they don’t have stamp duty no.
Aussie Firebug: alright so 2011 rolls around
Aussie Firebug: do you just want to continue on from there, where do you go from there?
Detrimental: yeah sure so basically this has been a site of mine I sat up four years in this job with my employers and basically just complete worked my ass off I didn’t purchase any new property I bought and sold a lot of shares, I was earning dividend income and basically just saving a lot of money am quite……………[29:02.1]I consider myself to be a minimalist as well I guess a lot of people that are on the road to financial independence do as well. so I don’t have big expenses I don’t buy big-ticket items I still sort of enjoy life and I still go traveling every now and again and yeah basically for the next four years I just absolutely saved, I had a full-time job and another part-time job and just saved and saved and saved and invested and kept investing so that’s what happened for the next few years in between that time I sold the country property.
Aussie Firebug: huh huh.
Detrimental: I sold it for a small profit , the US property had increased in value but like I said not by a huge margin but with the falling of the Australian dollar it is actually increased by 40% just in the fall of the dollar alone so that was good.
Aussie Firebug: yea
Detrimental: yea and that was a sort of an end of my working for somebody else career, I think that was in the end of 2013.
Aussie Firebug: so did you have ATS back then are where you still picking stocks?
Detrimental: I was still picking stocks right up until the end of 2013 I still thought I could beat the market, I thought I knew what I’m doing I will continue to buy stocks obviously I didn’t know what I was doing and yet there have been hits it’s and misses
Aussie Firebug: sure, so when did you sell the country house?
Detrimental: I think it was at the end of 2013 as well
Aussie Firebug: so where were you sitting at 2013 your network is?
Detrimental: haa let me think roughly yea so I haven’t been doing any real estate in the last two years but I would say the network would probably be I think it is about hundred and 180,000-200,000 at that stage at end of 2013
Aussie Firebug: and were you happy with the profit you made on the country house?
Detrimental: I regret buying it now. I think that the amount of effort that was involved I could easily have just put that money in the bank account earning interest and I probably would’ve come out evenly, the property there was tenant issues, tenant wasn’t paying the rent you can kick them out is very hard to real estate agents fees were high, stamp duties were high, taxes were high, insurance was high everything was… Yeah it was just a struggle and I just regret buying it now there was not much capital appreciation on the house
Aussie Firebug: yeah that’s was going to be my next question, when did you make the money off cash flow of capital gains yea.
Detrimental: Yea, yea one of the things I learnt from the property is the property value wasn’t much it was about $200,000 dollars or below. If there is a repair that needs to be made you go ahead and you make that repair but that repair might be $5000 so that there is your rent gone for a couple of months. If you buy a property in the capital city which is worth a lot more and means you have a lot more cash flow coming in that same repair would cost the same in the capital city but it might only be three weeks worth of rent rather than several months’ worth of rent
Aussie Firebug: yea
Detrimental: so anytime there was a repair on the house it was so much worse because the income generated from the rent was really not that great.
Aussie Firebug: yeah I absolutely couldn’t agree anymore I had this very same dilemma when I was very close to buying my second property and it was basically do I want to go super cash flow like 12-13% in a country town with hardly any prospect for capital growth or do I want to go interstate with not a very strong cash flow but very good possibility for future growth and I ended up going with the neutral but positively geared but it had so much more upside for capital growth because I thought the same thing, I thought if I just go for hundred percent 100% cash flow and no capital growth all that needs to happen is one hot water system you know one water terminal or something just needs to break and then all of a sudden like I work this out I crunch numbers on a property once and it was going to be about five or $6000 profit every single year which is not bad but I thought if something breaks or if something goes wrong and lose tenants for a few weeks you know that the old year profits gone ……………[34:00.6] that’s it it’s done so you shouldn’t just chase capital gains but I am of the opinion that as long as the cash flow is looking after itself and maybe giving you a little bit of money every week that’s enough you should you should invest, my preference is to invest for upside with good cash flow rather than 100% about the cash flow with not even looking into , can this place grow? So Yeah I know exactly what you’re saying.
Aussie Firebug: yeah so you sell the house so you wouldn’t to do it again, if you go back in time you wouldn’t do it again?
Detrimental: I wouldn’t do it again no
Aussie Firebug: but it’s good learning experience?
Detrimental: yeah absolutely
Aussie Firebug: yeah, ok so then you work until the end of 2013 and then you’re working for yourself and that brings us up to today is that right?
Detrimental: yeah that’s right so that’s two years basically just over two years now with my business ahm and working for myself and that brings us up to today.
Aussie Firebug: yeah nice. And have you bought any more properties, you said you bought ATS now do you still have the one in the US?
Detrimental: I’ve still got the one in the US I haven’t bought any more properties don’t really have any plans to at the moment. I have made a couple of really interesting investment decisions so I have invested in a commercial property syndicate I’m not sure if you ever heard of them …….. [35:39.7] investment into commercial properties.
Aussie Firebug: yeah I have
Detrimental: yes, so i have invested in that I have invested in a monthly income trust which is an income e generator from this company that provide short-term loans to developers like apartment developers or property developers or land developers.
Aussie Firebug: hu huh.
Detrimental: people that just need short-term loans but couldn’t be bother with going to a bank or it’s too short for the Bank to consider.
Aussie Firebug: is that like is that like peer-to-peer lending?
Detrimental: it’s sort of like peer-to-peer lending except it’s a company that coordinates the peer-to-peer lending so I am not directly lending to somebody am giving my money to a company and the company is going out and lending to 10 different people and the returns are average across those.
Aussie Firebug: and so what are the returns like, how do you find the returns to be
Detrimental: yeah so the returns from the commercial property currently are in about 10% in cash flow return
Aussie Firebug: and this is the syndicate right?
Detrimental: if this is the syndicate
Aussie Firebug: so can you talk to us a little bit about that, is it just like a group of people that you give money to and then you got some, you know stake in a company that lends money, how does it work?
Detrimental: so the property syndicate and the monthly income trust is a different different investment, so the property syndicate there’s a couple ways to invest in a property syndicate the first way to invest is to find a company that put out a product disclosure statement which will mean that anybody can invest any retail investor can invest in property syndicates and there are several companies like that. However the returns are much lower in that set up than other more commercial properties investment. The other way to invest is through superannuation. If you have the money in superannuation and you can utilize that to invest but you generally need a minimum of $100,000. In super to invest to become part of these syndicates to invest, they generally don’t accept anything less than that. And the third way to do it is to be a wholesale investor I’m not sure if you’re familiar with that term.
Aussie Firebug: vaguely
Detrimental: also called Australia a sophisticated investor or an institutional investor and you can invest being one of those, that isn’t open to normal retail investor so to become a wholesale investor you have to have asset worth $2.5 million or an income of $220,000 for the previous two years or invest $500,000 into the venture and then you’re classified as a wholesale investor.
Aussie Firebug: you need to be a big player
Detrimental: yes you have to be but there are ways around it, if you have your own business you can talk to your accountant about it and they can sign off on it, they can say you know your business has a future growth prospect you know and you can sign off on it or you can invest through superannuation.
Aussie Firebug: yea cool okay, that’s really interesting. So you are into the commercial property thing and also the peer-to-peer lending, what do you buy ATS now? Or is it just those other two alternative investments that you….
Detrimental: So yes I started buying ETF I read the bugles I think it’s called the bugles guide to investment I don’t know if you have read that one
Aussie Firebug: yes great book great great.
Detrimental: yes you know based on the guy who started Vanguard basically so that was a very good read and basically just learned that I can’t actually beat the market and so I started buying ETF started kind of creating my own portfolio I guess you could say of ETF both Australian shares, Australian Hyud shares International shares and US shares and investing that, and I have tried to average out the investment so I buy a set amount each month.
Aussie Firebug: yes so what’s your split?
Detrimental: Of those investments?
Aussie Firebug: yes like do you know the codes? Like do you by VIS
Detrimental: yeah yeah sure so I buy at the moment again just off the top of my head I’ve got 20% VIS I have got 20% VHY, VHY is the Hiyode shares.
Aussie Firebug: yes and just for people listening so VIS is the Australian share market and can you just explain the codes because I know a lot of people know but a lot of people don’t.
Detrimental: yeah absolutely sorry VIS is the Vanguard Australian index and basically it’s just tracks ever share on the Australian index VHY is the Vanguard Hiyode index and basically its aim is to track hiyoding shares of the index so it pays a high-end dividend.
Aussie Firebug: and is that the Australian market as well, is it?
Detrimental: that’s the Australian market as well
Aussie Firebug: okay
Detrimental: there’s the VTS, VTS is I believe and this is just off the top of my head am sorry
Aussie Firebug: no, no ,no that’s cool
Detrimental: I believe that’s the US market so that tracks the US share market and then VEU is the all world including the US so it tracks ever share market in the world excluding the USA
Aussie Firebug: yeah and you have 20% on the last two as well is that right?
Detrimental: yeah 20% on the last 2 as well and then the final 20% is in the Australian government bonds.
Aussie Firebug: cool
Detrimental: through Vanguard as well
Aussie Firebug: yeah and what’s your experience been like being with Vanguard investing with them?
Detrimental: have only been doing it sort of for the past year as you know the share market is down quite a bit so I lost money again but..
Aussie Firebug: you only lose if you sell
Detrimental: that’s right, that’s right, you only lose if you sell that’s actually true. at the same time I still haven’t learned my lesson there was a bit of…. When the share market went down last year and I thought it was a great perfect time to stock up on Woolworth shares and BHP shares, BHP paints such a great dividend at the moment so why wouldn’t you want an 8% return and of course both of those shares have absolute tanked so I still haven’t learned my lesson completely i think there’s an 8% percentage on everyone’s portfolio that should be a bit of fun right as long as you………. inaudible……….. [0:42:31.8] 10- 15% max I think that’s…………42:37.6 I wouldn’t mind you know I don’t really have any fun investment at the moment but I will I reckon I will buy just a few because you always hear the stories like you always want, you always hope for the next bit coin always hoping yea.
Aussie Firebug: do you have ATF at the moment?
Detrimental: I don’t but it’s going to be my next thing I reckon
Aussie Firebug: sure sure
Detrimental: I’m currently saving, saving saving saving and I will make up my mind closer to the third quarter of this year I reckon
Aussie Firebug: sure I mean is definitely important to have the most vacation…………… unclear audio.
Detrimental: if you are on an high income being in IT as well the franking credits you get from dividend in Australia are just fantastic
Aussie Firebug: yeah I know
Detrimental: you certainly need to consider those as well
Aussie Firebug: yeah yeah those does interest me a lot so what’s your FIN, what’s your financial independence number?
Detrimental: my financial independence number is 1.5 to 1.6 million
Aussie Firebug: and what are you currently at now?
Detrimental: I am just over 800,000 thousand
Aussie Firebug: well that’s quite a jump so you said at the end of 2013 you were at 180,000 – 200,000 is that right?
Detrimental: is that’s right?
Aussie Firebug: so what, two and a half years it’s gone up 400,000
Detrimental: That’s right
Aussie Firebug: where does that come from the savings or have you got lucky in the share market or
Detrimental: yeah it’s a bit of a mixture the Australian dollars is down a bit so the US property have increased a little bit am in my own business now so earning potentials are unlimited basically when you work for someone else your earnings are always limited
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: unless of course you make it to CEO or something but I always say your earnings are kind of somewhat limited
Aussie Firebug: definitely definitely
Detrimental: yeah I have the opportunity to grow the business as much as I possibly can and that’s where the majority of the money has come from right so you are -…………. [Killing it in the business44:48.7
Aussie Firebug: yeah absolutely yeah so
Detrimental: I think that while a lot of people who are financially independent minded are in the higher paying jobs such as IT or engineering or things like that. I think that if you are not in one of those field or you are not a high income you can achieve financial independent I think being in a small business is definitely an option for a lot of people and that’s definitely a good opportunity for a lot of people as well it is hard, is hard work but it is definitely something that people should consider
Aussie Firebug: sure
Detrimental: I definitely encourages it, I think while it’s hard work it’s hard for people to give up a good paying job to go into their own business, the returns you can generate from your own business is just greatly outnumbers the amount of returns you can make from working for someone else
Aussie Firebug: yeah, I was going to say I can definitely see the potential of working for yourself as you touched on so many people you know comfortable in their good paying job which I think I fall into that category as well
Aussie Firebug: over the last couple of years I definitely thought about starting my own business more and more and more but you’re definitely gets comfortable you know the paycheck that comes in every week
Aussie Firebug: you get used to living that lifestyle and I know a lot of people though that are very wealthy that talks about entrepreneur spirited mindset and they started their own business and they reach financial independence so much quicker than you could in a traditional job, so it’s definitely a valid strategy if you are that sort of person a lot of people are…… Inaudible..[46:48.6]
Aussie Firebug: I definitely think that’s a cool way to do it right. So you got a great job you got a good business going and you have started a forecast for the next three years you hit your number?
Detrimental: that’s my goal yeah, I don’t spend much of the money I spend very little per-year but I expect my spending to increase once I sort of reached retirement I guess you can say so basically if I was to stop working today and my expenses were to completely stay the same I would class myself as financially independent right now.
Aussie Firebug: right
Detrimental: I know that my expenses are a lot lower because I am working so much you know, I own a Café and catering company so I either work… I don’t travel as much as I would in sort of retirement so I know I need to plan for larger expenses once I do retire.
Aussie Firebug: and his family………….. [47:48.8] in the future that you have considered?
Detrimental: no family is not something I’ve considered in the future.
Aussie Firebug: yeah okay
Detrimental: it’s still a possibility but it’s not something I have considered but I think I’m still young enough to sort of considered so…….
Aussie Firebug: definitely…
Detrimental: for me it’s not a consideration at the moment
Aussie Firebug: at the moment okay cool, now that cools what’s been the biggest hurdle you have encountered on your journey so far?
Detrimental: think the biggest Hurdle have encountered? I think the biggest Hurdle for me was just going back a little bit. I was working for my employers for four years I was in a management position you know it wasn’t like huge mainly because [48:32.8]………….. pretty good money getting promotions and whatnot but I would definitely call it amazing the biggest hurdle for me was making the transition from employee with them to a business owner so it took a lot longer than I expected basically and the only reason I stayed at this job because I knew that in the future there would be prospects to become a business partner in a new venture with them, so I consider the last couple of years of that employment as sort of my first couple of years of struggling in a new business you know just as in some new business you hear about people struggling for the first couple of years you know struggling to make it work so I consider that sort of my biggest hurdle working for someone for four years knowing that I am making them a load of money when they didn’t really have much to do with the business.
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: so that was sort of my biggest hurdle I think you would say now that cool
Aussie Firebug: if you could go back in time knowing what you know now what’s the biggest thing that you would change to get to financial independence sooner?
Detrimental: the biggest thing I could change if I went back in time to get to financial independence? Huh interesting. Do I know what the share market is can I go…
Aussie Firebug: no no no no cheating …. Laughing its only mindset thing so you can’t just put all your money in bit coin and just retire happily
Detrimental: okay sure sure yeah yeah. I think if I could go back and told myself something in time without saying exactly what shares to buy I would say I would probably just tell myself just cut the crap just invest in ATS and just stay with it and just stop buying and selling all the time just purchased ATS don’t worry about buying a property just buy ATS and you would be fine I think I actually would be much better off today if I had just bought ATS rather than buy a property in……….. [50:42.8]
Aussie Firebug: yeah right okay interesting perspective there, yeah property bubble such a hot topic at the moment what are your thoughts on the Melbourne and Melbourne market?
Detrimental: Melbourne and Sydney market
Aussie Firebug: what did I say Melbourne and Melbourne?
Detrimental: Melbourne and Melbourne yea
Aussie Firebug: it’s too early in the morning its Melbourne and Sydney
Detrimental: so I’m not going to properly answer it by any means so you know just take it as a grain of salt what I say.
Aussie Firebug: sure
Detrimental: I actually think that the property market has been overvalued for many many years and I just keep getting proved wrong like the Sydney market that have just gone through a huge amount of growth where I thought it was overvalued 5 years ago. It’s nothing compared to what it is today, so if I think it’s overvalued today it probably is nothing compared to five years from now, so I can’t invest properly at the moment myself I just think that the returns are not there and I think that a lot of people talk about probably they failed to take into account all the expenses that are included with property so property is not for me at the moment I think you really need to study your market in order to find good value, I think that occasionally when there’s really good value I think real estate agents you know I think they take up on the… They find value and they go out and buy the houses and I actually know I have friends in real estate who do that.
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: I don’t think there will be a big property crash I really don’t think there will be if there’s a bit of a downturn it would be very slight or I think there will be a bit longer time where there is no growth
Aussie Firebug: huh yeah and that sort of two people, two camps at the moment you got all the… if you ever go into reddit/r/Australia it’s like every second bloody post is like how the property market is going to crash
Aussie Firebug & Detrimental: crosstalk…………. Inaudible…… [52:47.1] it is a very biased subreddit that one.
Aussie Firebug: absolutely and I mean I have been reading, sorry to interrupt you I have been reading articles on the future property crash of the Australian market 10 years now nonstop for 10 years those main articles 10 years ago when I was 15, 16, 17 years old……….. [53:10.9] back then so I don’t think a lot of people on Reddit really know the market.
Detrimental: no there’s so many left-wing millennia on and that subreddit and more hoping that it crashes so that they can pick up a cheap property than there are actual people you know with the fact and substance to back up their point, the other thing that really annoys me as well is they always referred to Australian property market like it’s one market. It’s like dude Australia property market is massive there’s markets all over the place like have you guys looked at the real estate processing……….. [53:51.2] they are down at the moment they haven’t gone up stop saying Australia is booming because there’s place in Australia that are not booming in fact Sydney and Melbourne are not the only places in Australia
Aussie Firebug: absolutely and even pockets of Sydney you know you’re seeing property comedown in western Sydney mining town’s actually huge bust there.
Detrimental: yeah exactly
Aussie Firebug: Apartments particular in Melbourne anyone buying an apartment in Melbourne you’re not going to make money in the next five years at least you know there’s apartments popping up everywhere there’s no money to be made in apartments where there is money to be made in my opinion only and again I’m not an expert. Is in the land if your property is on land in a good location a good quality location I don’t think you are going to see big property declines.
Aussie Firebug: I think that if you buying an in a good location or if you are buying a good townhouse or a house on a bit of land I don’t think you’re going to have issue with the property bubble if you’re buying an apartment in the middle of Melbourne I think you might have issues.
Detrimental: hu huh
Aussie Firebug: yea
Detrimental: yeah that’s just my opinion
Aussie Firebug: yeah and it’s all just opinion like even the experts, how many expert get it wrong it’s hard to say no one really knows what’s going to happen, I myself I think it hard I reckon it’s a good chance it might pop in Sydney and Melbourne and there might be a flowing effect to some parts of Australia but then I’ve also read the argument that prices are just going to stagnate and then inflation is just slowly going to catch up with the price, the income ratio difference
Detrimental: yeah absolutely
Aussie Firebug: I honestly don’t know myself either what’s going to happen
Detrimental: nobody does yea
Aussie Firebug: all I do know is you can’t just wait on something to happen you have to make something happen if you’re sitting on the sidelines you know waiting and waiting and waiting
Aussie Firebug: you could be waiting forever like these people that have been waiting in 2001, 2002 when that boom happen they would still waiting over a decade later, like if something happened, if you are buying and something happens okay your bad luck. This is my opinion as long as the cash flow is therefore real estate
Aussie Firebug: you’re always going to have that safeguard, if you buy a house that’s positively geared or neutrally geared and then it halves in price I am not that worried, if the rent half in price then am worried, if interest rate doubled then am worried I’m not worried so much about the property of the house
Aussie Firebug: because you lose money on paper only if you sell you know what I mean so it’s
Like if I have a strong cash flow I can ride out that bust for 5, 10 20 years you know, so.
Detrimental: yeah interesting I guess you’re getting into what if happens I mean if the property value
Declines by half that a huge like our entire economy would collapse
Aussie Firebug: exactly exactly
Detrimental: laughing… but I’m sure Banks would be knocking on your door for more equity in property’s defense there are some great things about properties I can invest like I said I can invest $16,000 and have a property worth $160,000 you know if that property price increases by 1% I haven’t made 1% have actually made 10% on my money
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: so there’s leverage that is fantastic promptly you just can’t get that with the share market
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: yeah there’s also what you said about rent and that’s one of my father’s big argument he doesn’t care for………. [ ] Stagnate or you know go down a little he says people still need places to live the rent is still going to come in the rent still increases with inflation so that’s argument for property investment
Aussie Firebug: yeah
Detrimental: I think that the biggest benefit of property investment is leverage
Aussie Firebug: yes
Detrimental: if you have $50,000 great you can buy a $500,000 house, if you have 50,000 and you want to buy shares is very hard to leverage that to buy shares
Aussie Firebug: the point I just want to touch on them as well it’s a big point to be made about your loan to yeah absolutely and the point I just wanted to get as well it is a big point to be made about your loan-to-value ratio so your LBR if you are lending a 95% LBR then you might be in trouble if the property halves or you know because the banks I don’t actually know of anyone that have got a margin call on a property ever but I think it can happen.
Detrimental: well it happens in the US but I don’t know about Australia but then who knows if the big buss happens …….. happens but I always buy at 20% LVR and then if the property goes up that’s a good thing you know and if it goes up higher and higher but shares you’re always going to get that margin call you know what I mean if you burrow on a margin.
Aussie Firebug: yes absolutely
Detrimental: you don’t get that so much with houses I know in America……….. Inaudible…………
yeah I mean the Banks they go and value your property every year do they?
Aussie Firebug: no it’s not going to happen I do get my value every year but that’s only because I asked for it to be valued… Laughing..
Detrimental: okay sure it’s good to know especially when you are on the path to financial dependence it’s good to know how much your property is worth yea.
Aussie Firebug: now I just wanted to touch on, so you started a sub reddit which for people listening who don’t know, reddit .com is like the front page of the Internet it’s a slogan and they have what’s called sub Reddit and they are all different like little topics in different communities so you have started the sub Reddit/FY Australia which stands for financial independent Australia why don’t you just take us through what made you start that, and what do you hope to achieve with that?
Detrimental: sure so Reddit is a great community resource for learning about financial independence or any topics really to discover like-minded people and discuss like-minded objectives and things like that and I was a subscriber to the subreddit financial independence which is very popular and has 120,000 people following that sub Reddit but a lot of the discussion on that sub Reddit was geared towards US investors and it was all about Roth and I don’t even know the terms of.
Aussie Firebug: IRA yea
Detrimental: IRA and 104K and whatever else that means and it was really just geared towards US investors and they talked about their own in play matching things and things that I have no idea about and it wasn’t relevant to the discussion, anytime I had a question I might write the question and they would say get your own player to match your contribution to your 104K which of course in Australia had no relevance at all.
Aussie Firebug: hu huh
Detrimental: don’t even made sense so I decided to start a financial independence sub Reedit for Australia so we could talk about financial independence so that it relates to the Australian market, so that we know what we are talking about so that we can go on and talk about superannuation’s or taxation or things that we know about that you can discuss in the other sub Reddit’s so that’s why I started it.
Aussie Firebug: yeah great and I love what you’re doing with it because when I first seen that it had been created I jumped on it right away and I think I have posted a lot in there and that’s another thing, you can always follow people and listen in. If you post a question in the sub Reddit I am always lurking around their and I think it’s a great resource because like Detrimental said there’s so many other tools online but they are almost all geared to US markets and the US economy and how their system works and not ours which is half the reason why I started ossie………com [1:01:42.9] to give my insight of my past to financial independence for an Australian and this podcast as well for Australian so make sure you check that out guys, I will put that in the show notes definitely and hopefully the community grows and grows because it’s not as active as I would like it to be and I know there’s more people out there who just haven’t discovered it yet because it’s a really good community
Detrimental: absolutely yes and thank you for writing Australian financial independence blog as well I tried to write one but I just gave up it’s a lot of effort and a lot of work.
Aussie Firebug: yeah I thoroughly enjoyed, okay we, ill wrapped things up now so I’m just going to do like a bullet round of a whole bunch of questions and you will just go to[1:02:30.5 ] …………….. yes just a little fun thing at the end of the podcast that I’ve been trying to do so I will give you two options and just the first one that comes to your mind just yelled out that option okay are you ready?.
Aussie Firebug: AFL or NRL
Aussie Firebug: liberal our labor?
Aussie Firebug: hungry jacks or mackers?
Aussie Firebug: yeah mackers classic good answer.
Detrimental: I thought it was going to relate to financial independence ….laughing
Aussie Firebug: no no no this is totally just for fun this bit, Jennifer Hawkins or Miranda Kerr?
Detrimental: I am gay so neither.
Aussie Firebug: :ahh…
Aussie Firebug: I should have realized
Detrimental: Inaudible… She’s Australia she’s pretty hot
Aussie Firebug: we will go with that, neighbors or Home and away?
Detrimental: oh neither but neighbors when I was growing up I did watch it.
Aussie Firebug: okay okay, half fresh as Australia or half fresh as finance?
Detrimental: Australia half……….. [1:03:31.0]Australia
Aussie Firebug: really
Detrimental: I just don’t like…….. [1:03:34.1]
Aussie Firebug: ahh okay I have got a love hate with both of them I think there’s good resources in both but there is very annoying people in both as well
Detrimental: absolutely yeah
Aussie Firebug: Mr. Money, Mr. Ash or barefoot investor?
Detrimental: Mr. Money Mustache
Aussie Firebug: Herald Sun or the age?
Detrimental: they are both………… [1:03:54.1] aren’they?
Aussie Firebug: am I don’t know, I know who Heralds son is.
Detrimental: the age is from Sidney Melbourne as well………………. [1:04:01.4] so you should be saying the age of the Sidney morning Herald.
Aussie Firebug: ahh but that’s a gimme that’s like a layup for you because I know which one you are going to say … Laughing
Detrimental: okay all right I will go with the age because I have actually never read the Herald
Aussie Firebug: okay, stocks are real estate?
Aussie Firebug: triple j or Fox FM?
Detrimental: triple J
Aussie Firebug: and last question, in a fight to the death would you rather fight 104 koala size Tony Abbott or a Tony Abbott size koala?
Detrimental: a Tony Abbott, I have got to think about this sorry.
Aussie Firebug: would you rather fight 10 koala size Tony Abbott?
Detrimental: oh that’s easy
Aussie Firebug: or a Tony Abbott size koala?
Detrimental: a Tony Abbott size koala
Aussie Firebug: are you sure have you seen……… [1:04:46.9] Laughing
Aussie Firebug: yes I will put it in the show notes
Detrimental: are they just like sleepy all the time on drugs?
Aussie Firebug: ohh man no you have got to YouTube it.
Detrimental: I would also like to kick Tony Abbott’s ass so that could be fun as well if he was as small as a koala
Aussie Firebug: 10 he is a pretty fit sort of a dude he had run some triathlon so which one you going for?
Detrimental: that’s true so I will go with a Tony Abbott so that I can kick him, fight with him.
Aussie Firebug: 10 koala size Tony Abbott
Detrimental: that’s right
Aussie Firebug: okay great book it’s been an absolute pleasure Detrimental thanks for coming on the podcast
Detrimental: thanks very much for having me
Aussie Firebug: yeah it’s been such an interesting conversation I wish you all the best in your future endeavors to reach financial independence and your company, for my subscribers please head over to iTunes and write the podcast Chuck a comment in anything that you want to see more of or that you don’t like I always read every comment so if you ever post a comment in the comment section below or on iTunes that would be absolutely fantastic again you can reach me on ossiefivebug.com or I am always lurking on Reddit.com/FI Australia as well and that’s a wrap thanks a lot Detrimental for coming on
Detrimental: thanks very much
Aussie Firebug: yeah no worries okay see you later.
Detrimental: cheers bye-bye.