Aussie Firebug: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Aussie Firebug podcast. Podcast, the financial independence podcast pool Australians where I interview clever people who have already reached on the way to financial independence. Our guest today is Pat from lifelongshuffle.com. Pat is 29 year old construction engineer, working in Sydney who’s planning to retire early within 10 years. Pat, welcome to the show

Pat: Hey Mat, how are you going on? Yeah thanks for having me on the show.

Aussie Firebug: Yeah, not too bad mate, not too bad. Where does lifelong shuffle originate from mate?

Pat: Well, a few people have asked this question and it’s just kind of my brain child. I was a bit bored at work one day and I was you know, just thinking about…I have to get out of this and I was reading other blogs and I thought, this looks easy enough, I’ll start my own blog and I decided to call it lifelong shuffle. And the story kind of goes back to one of my mates who used to have this kind of really weird dance that he used to do before he would hit on some girls at the bar. We used to call it the Ken Host Shuffle, and for some reason I was just thinking of that on that day and it turned into part of my blog name.

Aussie Firebug: That’s a very funny origin for that name. Does he know about the blog?

Pat: He doesn’t know about the blog, I’m not sure if he knows I copy pasted the name of it on the dance that he used to do.

Aussie Firebug: Wow, the way I looked at it like lifelongshuffle I sort of you know, was a bit of a metaphor for shuffling through life in a particular way which is what you are about you know, looking through the wind of everything like that. That’s funny; it has that story behind it.

Pat: Yeah.

Aussie Firebug: So what was the original shuffle called?

Pat: The Ken Host Shuffle.

Aussie Firebug: The Ken Host Shuffle.

Pat: Ken Host is just a place in kind of out of Sydney where my friend comes from.

Aussie Firebug: Alright you know if you blow up and the blow comes mainstream I might come after you for some royalties so, Ken Host Shuffle royalties maybe; very funny. Did you always want to retire mate? Or was it something that you discovered later in life and you wanted to pursue?

Pat: Yeah I mean, not straight away. You know, when I first started fulltime work, really exciting and really interesting to me and did the university thing for like five and a half years, so kind of all that youthful excitement and energy was, I had it, kind of like everyone else does but after several years of doing that you know I just began to drain on me as it does and I’m in the construction industry of course I must have already mentioned that on the podcast. And it’s just one of those industries which it really kind of screws people down with really long work hours and working weekends and just kind of lots of pressure on the field. And so eventually a kind of desire grew inside of me and there was a tipping point and eventually I kind of went on google one day and I tried to start looking up that early retirement and I came across a few blogs and almost immediately it just kind of all really made sense to me. And it’s like well I’ve kind of always known I didn’t want to work forever, I never really had a detailed plan to get there but once I saw those blogs and I saw other people that had changed it and other people who were trying to do it kind of really cemented the idea in my mind and yeah, it was born really quite quickly.

Aussie Firebug: It’s such a common thing you know that you go online, you know maybe not sure what you are looking for then you come across one of these blogs and all posts and whatever and when you figure out you know people are really doing it, it’s sort of like the light bulb moment. I had that when I read a book but it sound like you read it on a blog. Can you remember which blog you were reading when you figured out like this is a thing and this is what you’re going to try to do?

Pat: Yes, so the very first blog I came across and I had a lot in me that I can’t really remember how I came across it, because it was Bill Carry Creko, with James, I’m not sure if you are familiar.

Aussie Firebug: Yes, I have read some articles before, I don’t follow as much as some others but yes, he’s been very popular.

Pat: Yeah, and to be honest that was one of the only ones I read before I really started my blog and before I kind of did some more detailed research into the ozzy scene. I mean it wasn’t until a bit later before I started kind of well, what other bloggers are out there really started to search, and kind of found them.

Aussie Firebug: Yeah I know that. And is this sound like, you know you mentioned that you always knew that you wanted to not work forever.

Pat: Yes.

Aussie Firebug: Has that been in your mind since you were a kid or was that an influence that you know by your parents or your upbringing or anything like that?

Pat: I don’t think I was influenced by my upbringing, I think it’s, to be honest I don’t think so at all it’s just something that you know when I was at work the concept or idea, a conventional early retirement really appealed to me. When I say conventional I mean five or 10 years early.

Aussie Firebug: Yeah.

Pat: Kind of not retiring at 65 like my father had to and so I started you know, investing my money well before I had the idea of retiring very early and I kind of think that investing that money was kind of a part that conventional early retirement goal. But yeah, it kind of, I really became focused and determined obviously kind of late last year, early this year when my blog was born.

Aussie Firebug: Yeah, who taught you about investing?

Pat: You know Mat, absolutely no one.

Aussie Firebug: At all?

Pat: Yeah, really. I think I’ve read a bit of your blog and you’ve mentioned the same thing you’ve kind of come from a wonk family and you sort of started your culture in investing in real estate and everyone is just like that you know, you have to buy a house, rent money, debt money et cetera and I didn’t go and invest in any real estate but that’s partly because my parents and my extended family would just really sort of anti-kind of securities or anti-equities, that’s you know, for my whole upbringing.

Aussie Firebug: Which actually is the common thing with you know baby boomism you know, it’s always bricks and mortar as a safe bet and you know, anything in the stock market is what I gain into them.

Pat: Yeah, exactly. And I had an uncle that lost big in the stock market and I think my father especially when I was young it kind of sounds like he was exactly like you said, terrified of the stock market. As far as he was concerned it’s just gambling your money which of course we know not to be the case after doing some varied research, yeah.

Aussie Firebug: Yeah, I know that. So just good said of that question, what are you investing in currently?

Pat: Yeah, so I’m kind of almost 100% shares at the moment. Perhaps at any one point I’m not just 100% just because I’m waiting to pile up a bit of money so I can then

Aussie Firebug: Oh yeah, sure.

Pat: More shares in a sort of cost effective manner. But yeah, mostly Australian equities with that kind of a really tiny exposure by what I can tell everyone else’s standard to international equities.

Aussie Firebug: So how much percent would you say is Australian equities?

Pat: I think at the moment it’s 80 to 85% Australian equities.

Aussie Firebug: So what’s the reasoning behind that?

Pat: Well, I’m not sure if you’ve read my Franking Credits article.

Aussie Firebug: I have, great article by the way. I would definitely link that in the show notes, it’s one to definitely read if you are unsure of the Franking Credits.

Pat: Yeah so I actually found that kind of bizarre, well not kind of bizarre like I understand the sort of how everyone wants a lot of diversification to head against a bit of risk from the Australian market not doing so well, but those Franking Credits, you know they literally are like an extra percentage point on your returns and you kind of mentioned to anyone that you’re going to go with this asset, cross with that asset, cross when this one has sort of one percent cost involved, they’d be like , “What are you crazy? You’re going to invest in an asset clause where you are paying one percent higher fees”

Aussie Firebug: Yeah, it’s blasphemy.

Pat: No, yeah exactly. It’s all kind of investing in Australian equities like that kind of what, Wow, I’m getting an extra percentage point of returns per year which of course is gigantic, and it can really speed up the investment process.

Aussie Firebug: Absolutely, so what is the fifty percent international? Do you pick the stocks or are you an ETF investor, I can’t remember on your side if you’ve said it either or…

Pat: Yeah, I’m mostly ETFs and then I kind of have a few Australian stocks which I bought, I’d say kind of not stupidly but against all my better judgment.

Aussie Firebug: I have, I told you that’s safer.

Pat: Well some of those turned out great others they just kind of posting along not doing much so I think all in all if you take all of those stuff that I’ve bought together they kind of just equaling what I get out of my ETFs so yeah, it’s like…

Aussie Firebug: You know, I did the ETF thing as well but you know I think it’s you know, whatever you are comfortable with like it’s whatever blend of shares you’re comfortable with and even I’ve seen some people you know pick and choose their own shares but they sort of stick with the you know, the bigger companies, and companies that are in the ETFs anyway, so really there really is no right or wrong answer, whatever makes you sleep at night really but yeah, you know, if you know what you’re doing and you think you know you can make a good judgement call like you know, I don’t see why not. What ETF, what Australian ETF are you invested in? Venga?

Pat: Yeah, Venga VAS. Yeah, that’s it, that’s my…

Aussie Firebug: I’ve seen that, yeah. That’s a, it’s a common choice you know, you’re like you’re talking about management fee it’s probably hard to, I don’t know if anyone is offering that point zero zero or point zero four percent of the you know, measurement fee out there.

Pat: Yeah, the Australian is point one four I think. It’s the US one that gets that ultra-point zero four.

Aussie Firebug: These two, yeah sorry you are correct, it’s the VTS is the point zero four. Yeah that’s right, still…

Pat: Unbelievable like point zero four

Aussie Firebug: I know that’s just insane. What about the international. You are in cheers or you are going for ETF’s s as well for international?

Pat: Definitely ETF and again VTS is what is at the moment. I am kind of hoping to get into other international ETFs but just kind of cruising at the moment and seeing what my next purchase would be

Aussie Firebug: I mean VTS as well I do like every month. I just go by whatever ratio is you know whatever split is out of my three funds split and I just top up that one. I just do that. But I‘m sort of not of hoping like if the Australian dollar was to decline any further which some people are predicting that it is coming to 90 cents I would go and start leaning towards buying some VTS just because of the fact that it is unhitched against the Australian dollar like if you look at the returns if you had put in some money in 2012 and was parity or was just a little bit over its such a good opportunity that I’ll know what to do for next time you know it gets me that I will I be buying a whole bunch so that when it comes back it is like boom you get that unhitched bonus.

Pat: If you bought US VTS security in 2012 you would be doing very well right now.

Aussie Firebug: Yeah that’s just so good. I lost. Next time you know now that we know we will be prepared for next time.

Pat: Exactly. Back in 2012 I was spending most of my money travelling so

Aussie Firebug: Right, I spend like… I actually went to the states. Can you believe it? It was a once in a life time trip but we spent I am not kidding if you like this is before I truly discovered financial independence. I spent like a good 18 grand or something and I converted it to US it was like a 2months trip but I bought so many things because I knew a whole year that if I was going to buy this wait until I will go to America because it is going to be cheaper. I went to New York and I spend like 4 grand in New York I bought laptops…I got watches clothes everything. I had been holding out for a whole year but because each stand was so good I got all these electronics and everything was so much cheaper I really cleaned up but I thought if I just kept $1000 currency and converted I could have made some money of that but you know you live once I guess

Pat: Exactly

Aussie Firebug: I was going through your blog and you had another interesting article which also I would link into the show notes. You are not a huge fun of Super.

Pat: Not at all. The reason for that is mistrust of government policy over my lifetimes so I am 29 now and before I can access my Super I am looking at something like 30 years or a bit more than 30 years. I just don’t trust that the government will keep all rules the same so that I can access my Super when I want to and cant access it in the same way that people can right now. I much prefer to invest outside of Super.

Aussie Firebug: I don’t add anything extra to Super which I am guessing you are not adding anything extra either so your main fear is that if you start adding extra to super because super can play an important role in early retirement if everything holds up the way it is now but your main concern is that the government with the meddling fingers, you know they have a history of meddling where they shouldn’t be they might change something and you might not have access to it. Is that your main worry?

Pat: Yeah. Essentially and it is not just not having access to it it’s just having access in different sort of ways and what happens to the money when I die, or my beneficiaries die and all those sort of little questions and all those sort rules that can change over the next 30 years.

Aussie Firebug: Do you think that if you are approaching the preservation age there is that much change. Like if you are three years out of the preservation age and you might start to follow some money into super just for those juicy tax savings.

Pat: Well yeah, exactly. As I approach preservation age there is obviously the risk of changes. it completely diminishes as you get closer and closer and so I am not sure exactly when the tipping point will be for me but I imagine somewhere like 10 years before I reach my preservation age I would start to think well it is only two more different governments and two more governments changes before I can access my super so maybe I will just contribute a little bit more now

Aussie Firebug: Sure. There is a few people that I have spoken to on the phone that have the similar mentality as you that they don’t trust the government and that they would rather keep it sort of on the fence. I am on the fence. I am building up my profile on super I am not contributing any extra bit I don’t know if I will because I made a little calculator that sort of you know that calculates how much you need for super how much is inside super to have the quickest way to financial independence in Australia is a two phase system if everything stays the same. Right now you need sort me on the outside you need to sort me on the inside super but when push comes to shove I am not sure if I will actually contribute to super or not so I am on the fence about that. When we are talking like I would need to shave off an extra year or something… is an extra year really that bad to guarantee financial independence. I don’t know, that’s a bridge I will cross when I get to it I guess. You are in Sydney right now aren’t you?

Pat: Yeah I am in Sydney.

Aussie Firebug: You are currently renting with your partner is that right

Pat: Yeah that is correct and we are renting in a sort of share apartment so we live with someone else at the moment and I am kind of a big proponent of share accommodation in these really expensive capital cities so me and my partner practice what we preach in terms of that article and we are sharing.

Aussie Firebug: Awesome. I have also done sharing before as well even in the country where rent is a little cheap but still it half’s your bills so I am definitely a believer in that also. Sorry I am coming to an article which I don’t remember when I read it but you are not very keen on Sydney’s property market which I think is quite understandable it a big crisis at the moment. Do you ever see yourself buying a house in Sydney? You are from Sydney originally like your friends and family are all in Sydney

Pat: Yeah all my friends and family are in Sydney and I was born here and to answer your question I don’t see myself buying a property anywhere in or around Sydney at all, ever. I think I… it’s a little bit more expensive it depends on what you consider Sydney but perhaps go up to the central coast or down to sort of Wollongong area and buy a property there but those are place which I don’t even consider to be Sydney any more. They are places you can even drive to and fro, you spend a day there you might even sleep there because driving back would be too much of an imposition on your body

Aussie Firebug: Yeah so are you planning to retire in Sydney. My question is that are you planning to rent forever?

Pat: No I do want to own a property I have sort of been considering my options. I am not sure exactly where I will retire and obviously a lot of it has to deal with my girlfriend as well where she wants to live and what she is comfortable with but I considered sort of Presbenerio or Sunshine Coasts I haven’t looked too far into it but buying a property is certainly one of my sort of long term aspirations.

Aussie Firebug: Is your partner from Sydney as well

Pat: No, she is from Wollongong actually and yeah she’s moved up to Sydney for work because there is a not a lot of work in her field down in Wollongong.

Aussie Firebug: How is she taking all these financial independence business? Is she on board with it at all?

Pat: Yeah she is actually and I am kind of surprised may be a little bit surprised by it to be honest but she is yeah very supportive right from the beginning and she has a very big part to play in all of my blog posts. When I write something it’s sort of a grammatical mess and verb errors and tense errors and all sorts of stuff but she comes in and cleans up every post after I have written it and it’s been really great

Aussie Firebug: Do you know I had the same deal going on with Mrs. Firebag but she got sick of it towards the end so, I even had a radar that was doing for me which was cool but I had to like every time I did a post I didn’t have to wait for her to log in and check in I always do it myself now and there is heaps of errors but I don’t particularly care about that much.

Pat: Sometimes I feel the same way. Just get them out just don’t worry

Aussie Firebug: Why don’t you take us back to the moment like was there a conversation you had with her explaining what you were trying to achieve and what you envisioned your life to be when you reached financial independence. How did that go?

Pat: This is kind of really awful not because the conversation was hard or anything but I had never did really discussed it with her before I started my blog and I kind of just sprung the blog on her.

Aussie Firebug: Ooh well.

Pat: That’s kind of how she found out.

Aussie Firebug: So you just wrote in a blog post one day and she said what are you doing and you just dropped it on her?

Pat: Yeah, my first blog I don’t know. I was a bit embarrassed to be honest or so unconscious about writing my own blog it’s not something I ever imagined myself doing years ago or when I was a child or anything so when I wrote that first blog post I kind of brought it to her and I was like hey, I have started a blog do you want to read it. That’s when she kind of really found out.

Aussie Firebug: What did she say? How did that conversation go you know? Perhaps like I have seen that you want to retire early and we are not going to be saving for the next ten years does this mean that we are not going to eat. How did that go? I am sure she had 100 questions

Pat: She did have 100 questions but she didn’t ask them straight away she kind of let them on slowly and I think at the very beginning she was just very supportive and really happy and she thought right well I have really missed blog. She thought that was pretty cool and so she was really happy to begin with. Little later on we started feeling out those sorts of issues. Well do we eat out anymore, how much we eat out what we spend our money on? Writing the blog has just been great and getting my thoughts out and her having to read every single one. It is aided in our communication a whole lot and every time I write something new she gets another little insight to how I am thinking about these things but yeah she is enjoying it. To be honest I think I asked her about it one day and she said you know what Pat, not much has changed whatsoever to be honest we spend a little less on eating out and we just think about what we are spending our money on and that’s about it. Otherwise we still enjoy ourselves, we still get out, to be honest we probably even spend more time together now, we do things that we enjoy even more and yeah. I can’t say there have been any negatives whatsoever.

Aussie Firebug: Yeah I know. It’s really funny some people you know, I don’t know if you’ve had to explain to people what you’re doing but if I’ve ever had to explain that you know, some people what I’m doing it, yet still, they are like what so you know you’re going to live you know, on nothing live like a peasant for 10 years and then just live like a peasant for the rest of your life. They’re like, “Nah, it’s not that, it’s not like that.” It’s just like you know the new offering that’s like you know $1800, like when you start caring about that crap, like we happy to use like running out of phone, we don’t need to go out you know three or four times a week, buying clothes isn’t like a huge deal for us. I think heaps of consumer bullshit can be carrier and it can half your bill and then you sort of get to a level where if you’re cutting any more of your spending, then it sort of is impacting your life a bit, like way more than the first 50% you can get. And that sort of way out I mean my partner you know I was at the extreme level for a year or so then, I was a bit too extreme. And she sort of levels me at a bit so we lived a crime life. Like we go out when we want to go out, she buys new shoes if she wants to buy new shoes but there’s always, like she’s very responsible. She was responsible even before she met me and I always have like a little rule you know, we’re going to make sure I like it, I never impulse buy anything, I like think of it before, a few days and if I still want to buy, I just buy. We’re just conscious, we’re conscious of how much we spend and that’s really a bad it, like that’s not even like, we are not like starving ourselves, like some people think. It’s nothing like that.

Pat: It’s really funny like depending on how much you rated stuff sort of read my blog or if you haven’t read it at all yet, you kind of see a general theme of me just trying to explain or trying to express my thoughts that, wait a minute, like, we’re living in Australia where we’re living like these extraordinarily, like rich and opulent lifestyle compared to the rest of the world and compared to history. Like I mean I never go hungry I’m out you know, the other weekend I was at a friend’s party, we’re having a barbeque, I was drinking a nice cold beer, I was socializing and I’m like this whole nut costed me like five to $10 like I’m living like this really fun really comfortable really kind of beautiful Australian life, which is just extraordinarily sort of rich. Any sort of standards that you can make other than just comparing yourself to sort of other ultra-consumers first world country citizens of the year 2017 or the early 2000s, whatever you want to say.

Aussie Firebug: Yeah100% agree even the fact that if you live in Australia that puts you in like the top five percent wealthiest person in the world straight away without even doing anything or just the fact that you are in Australia that even on the minimum wage you are richer than majority of people on the planet. Yet people still complain.

Pat: That’s right and what you said by the way kind of confuses you are like wow you are being like really like a pervert if you are denying yourself of these pleasures and well actually no. Like you said everything I want and more I’ve just like cut away all the bullshit that doesn’t matter and that’s the key. Finding out like really finding out what matters and what doesn’t and when you start cutting away you figure out very quickly that all of this other shit like this external consumer gloss it just doesn’t matter and none of it makes you happier none of it improves your life and any sort of discernable way at all and once you start cutting away all that shit and you kind of de-clutter your life and you really de-clutter you remind and you start living I’d say a much better life because you are focusing on the things that do matter . you are going out for walks you are focusing on your works you are focusing on your relationships and instead of like every week and going to the shopping center and just buying the newest brand name in clothing because you have to look in front of your friends the next time you see them you are going out with your mates and you are kind of both look like buns but you are both running around the bay and you are both happy and yeah it’s amazing when you just cut away all that crap. How much better things become.

Aussie Firebug: Preach, preach it Patty Artist 100% truth you are right there. A minute of truth just dawns you just drop. There is a really cool view, Mr. Money Muztag. I think he was in it. He was talking about it like what makes us happy because at the end of the day I don’t care what you are doing it’s all about happiness. You enjoy being happy 24/7. Everything you do is to be happier even if you have given up your dome, or you are donating money or you are helping other people that is a side effect releasing dolphins and making you feel better about yourself which is a by-product of happiness. Right and Mr. Money Muztag has this video and it’s like the secret to happiness is being there is no secret it’s been here for years. There are certain things that the human being needs like shelter, food, security everything like that like basic human in needs. If you live in Australia odds are you know you are unfortunately harmless or something bad has happened to you. Once you got every basic thing a human being needs covered like at a basic level, you are being fed, you got a house a roof over your head so that beyond that is like a few other things that is needed to make a human being happy like creating relationships and family things like that physical fitness is a big one I mean that’s it, you know what I mean. There was no other, there was no apple mac book back in the stone age but people were surely happy but then there are books of people being happy you know like throughout history when there was no these things. That exist today and they didn’t exist then like it’s the same simple things that matter and so many people grow they look beyond and they think if I get that next promotion or if I am on this money suddenly I am going to be happier. Things like that or if I get that new bag it’s going to make me happier. It won’t make you happy you might get some like a rush of happiness but it deteriorates it’s not the new thing anymore. Then you know you flattered with Mac and campaigns that the new bag or the new Wife and suddenly your things crap it’s like just focus on the basic things like what a human being needs at the most basic level is usually all that you need and there is a little pleasure along the way that make you happier or you know I’ve got nowhere to go makes me so happy you know that is a little bit of new technology but very little, there is a few things I love but there is so much of other stuff they want to started to track my spending’s also I don’t really care about that that can go, the next thing you know you have cut out 30% of your spending just like that.

Pat: you really need to link to Mr. Money’s Muztag video. Have you

Aussie Firebug: have you watched the video I am referring

Pat: Oh yeah I’ve watched it probably ten times

Aussie Firebug: Yeah, that’s right that means it’s awesome.

Pat: The way that he sort of articulates those thoughts and the way expresses them just really hits the nail on the head and it’s really hard to disagree with anything he is saying in that video just because I mean his really precise.

Aussie Firebug: Definitely the link to that video like as he said he can articulate it a lot better than I can but it just hit a nerve with me and I am sure he will hit a nerve with a lot of people it’s like just the basic stuff is where we are human beings, we are just an animal on earth and certain things biological can make us happy and all this other crap is marking in you know 21^st century bullshit. With technology advancements it’s now good to have a heater if you feel cold you can turn this heater on and it makes you warm that’s cool. There is so much crap that you just don’t need. We saw that turning off our phones we went off the tangent

Pat: That not off tangent at all I think that’s like really the key to financial independence is finding out what you need and why and what you don’t because all flesh will quickly erode any sort of extra income you get if you let it

Aussie Firebug: I completely agree, absolutely. Why don’t we get back to yourself and on your website there is a goal tracker that sits to the top right of your website and it currently running round about $250000 and how I interpret it is that you need roughly 1.25 million to hit your financial independent number. Is that correct

Pat: Yes. The way I set that target is that I have taken the nominal amounts in ten years’ time to be 1.25 million which is equivalent roughly to 1million and 17 dollars.

Aussie Firebug: Got you. When you reach this number that means that you are financially independent correct

Pat: I think I will actually reach financial independence much sooner that when I hi that number just because I am spending actually far less than the income that that amount of money would produce. I am actually planning for a little bit of lifestyle inflation in terms of the sort of house I want and perhaps a family and that sort of thing.

Aussie Firebug: How much income is that that you planning to get form that at the end

Pat: Todays there was forty thousand a year

Aussie Firebug: That’s for you to be financially independent does that include your partner in that goal.

Pat: It doesn’t actually .it depends on when I think about it. That amount of money is more than enough why believed to sustain me and my partner for the rest of our lives. As I said earlier, a family will need slightly more than, adding my partner into the mix, in my mind and I have discussed with her a couple of times. Looking at around 1.5 or 1.6 million not much more at all

Aussie Firebug: I guess that when you are at that stage the difference is to save one hundred thousand dollars takes years. I mean to save the next one hundred thousand takes less and so on and so on and so on. If you write 1.25 million to add on the next couple of 100000 with the purpose of comparing interest on the markets takes a while in those years and shouldn’t be too far away. Have you got joint finances already or you haven’t tightened this.

Pat: No, we’ve got completely separate finances think they completely try and spare it to each other but as far as bank accounts and investment accounts that is completely separate.

Aussie Firebug: Does she invest herself

Pat: Yes she definitely does. In a lot of ways she is perhaps invested even more impressive way than have because she is five years my junior she is much stronger than I was five years ago.

Aussie Firebug: is that partly due to your nose you are quite fond of her or she is just shown an interest earlier on.

Pat: well she didn’t show interest in investment so much but just in being really good in money manager and not spending all that money and yeah she got a full time job. You know she left University and she had a part job before her bur she never just went out and spend all our money time and I think kind unlike me she just had more money than she could spend in a sort of rational way without kind of feeling completely ridiculous and that’s how I came later on my original couple of 100k. I didn’t really have a goal so can’t spend that much I just spend what I wanted ad then its stopped anything above that was just like what the hell I can’t spend this bloodshed’s that ridiculous I had no desire to.

Aussie Firebug: It is such a bonus isn’t it if your partner good with money, starting of the bar like more and more and it’s just like thank God that I want with someone that was just a reckless spender and that didn’t come out of the woodwork until a few years because I never looked at her bank account at all like the first couple of years when we joined finances last year and sort of like when I say joined finances it just becomes transparent. She has got all separate accounts and I have got mine but I guess the only difference is we invest in the one trust so she will help me out. She would transfer money to me and we will invest together that’s far the only difference but it’s just such a bonus that she wasn’t reckless.

Pat: I think finding someone like that you know isn’t a complete coincidence. Even Stephan told me it’s just my girlfriends name for all of your listeners who don’t know she was originally was attracted to me partly because I wasn’t very materialistic at all and I would just go out and try to shed off a lot of my wealth even though when I met her at least a few months afterwards it was kind of clear that I had quite a lot of money but yeah.. so with you I am sure part of the reason that you were attracted to each other was even if it’s kind of unconscious you are not materialistic you have good money management skills etc. sort of thing

Aussie Firebug: Do you know I have never actually thought about that but it does make sense now that you said it. It maybe subconsciously yes I was attracted to that side and maybe she was as well but yeah maybe that’s what happened. That’s a good sign to think of that I never thought of that one that’s a good one. You said in your blog that you want to retire by 39 and you are 30 still how long, so you are sill 29 now 10 years to go how long do you reckon it’s going to take to get there?

Pat: Since I have had that original target and original post I have gotten a promotion and I have driven my spending down even further and I have really kind of become conscious of everything I am spending I think by the latest calculations me on my own it will take about 6-7 years and if I throw Stephan in to the mix and we’ve that sort of reduced target together which is about 1.5M it will only take us about 5-6 years so yeah it’s been great and getting an extra income obviously helped and we are really driving don those costs it’s just really driving that date forward and it’s so powerful when you can see that date coming forward and you work it all out and you the results of kind of everything you are doing and it’s like yeey I can keep driving these costs down and I can drive my income up in this day. It’s going to be hit even before I realize it.

Aussie Firebug: that’s awesome , from where I am sitting that’s unbelievable and you know for those that are listening in having a partner you might think it might take twice as long, having a partner and you know you have to factor them in as well but it actually doesn’t if they have got a decent enough job. Having a partner could actually save you money because you have got someone else to turn in good money as you are doing even normal money but everything is cut in half like the rent is cut in half , the groceries are cut in half and it’s a lot more efficient living with someone else than having two people living two people living in two separate homes paying two separate rates if you are in the home, two separate gas bills and everything like that it’s a lot more efficient with a partner trust me.

Pat: Yeah two can live almost as keep as one

Aussie Firebug: Absolutely. You can almost do it almost like, yeah there are a few that you are extra but just as is mathematically impossible not to behave as two people as one but it’s very efficient. it’s all surprised like what the hell like huu we are pretty much living off Chris’ pay cheque which is more like the same she was like she is still living off my pay cheque and all those it’s been unbelievable.

Pat: if you don’t have a partner then obviously things are a bit more difficult in terms of reaching that goal but yeah if you do find someone and they are as intense on not working away their entire lives or running that rat rail their entire lives then yeah it just sucks. MI6 is so much better and so much easier. If I could Segway as well

Aussie Firebug: Sure

Pat: Just on topic, I can’t exactly where I read it but perhaps I can find something and link it to. They say something like 70 or the majority of divorces are a result of financial problems and so when your finances are in order and when you’ve got a partner that thinks financially the same as you you’ve kind of eliminated the major cause of most divorces in first world countries so it’s just another way of being financially independent really does drive being happy and yeah that’s sort of quite an important goal for everyone and being happy like we are talking about before with Mr. Money Muztag that it should be the goal of everyone to kind of be as happy as you can and help other people as much as you can and that should make you even happier and that’s just another plus or advantage to kind of achieving this goal.

Aussie Firebug: That’s a really interesting statistic if you could find that article it would make it cross link operative on the show but I have heard that you know that financial stress is a big cause of marriage breaks but I have had that it foes up to 70% but I believe that for sure that like 100% that’s very believable just because I know personally some couples that have gone through hard time because of financial stress, because of arguing about money, because of work related stress, because of they weren’t home enough and wherever and a huge motivation for me to reach financial independence is to have that time back to not worry about money to you know when we eventually have kids to not be even working three days a week would be a drain. I can’t imagine that. Three days a week for ever. I would be happy to do three days a week but eventually I have the option of working null days a week but it is just not in the brain for me to have that option and to achieve that goal and have so much stress lifted off your shoulders so you can go back to what is important in life like we’ve spoken in realities just focus on the important things and just cut off all the rat race bull shit.

Pat: The sort of rat race would steal so much time away from you and even more time than most people realize probably more time than I even realize: going for a full time job ad trying to sort out yout life in these sort of gaps around full time work and as you said get them out of your mind and let them go just having like could you imagine having the kid and actually having the beautiful sort of privilege, the luxury of being able to spend time with your kid which is possibly the saddest thing I have said this whole podcast like so many parents don’t have the luxury of spending time with your children. It’s kind of sad when you think about that but then this goal like just thinking of that sort of thing if I do have children which I do want to eventually just being able to wake up and just not have to race off to work and then get back home when they are tired and they have obviously gone to sleep.

Aussie Firebug: Exactly

Pat: It would be just as you said amazing, just unbelievable. Every day would just be like look I get to spend time with my kids instead of running around and racing around and never seeing them

Aussie Firebug: The saddest thing about being rushing off to work at 4am that’s a fear of mine. I am looking at all these dads working at pretty big office pf 1000 people and there are some people and there are some people working obviously going to work at four I was like are you insane, that’s ludicrous I know like that’s what you do, like if you have a kid you can’t have his time I am like oh my God I definitely … there is no way I will be working full time even if I don’t reach full financial independence when we have a kid I want to work three days a week for sure I have already worked that out so that when I am in my thirties I will be able to take a few days off and if I have to extend my financial date for a couple of more years I don’t care I would work 3 days a week and have that home time and have that sleep time and not sacrifice things, people sacrifice things when money is, whether they need more finances whether they need to work overtime, they need to do this and suddenly they are not going to the gym, they are not doing this, they are not walking the dog, they are not doing the things that make them happy and that is to earn that dollar to be able to live that life and its bad to walk into a thing

Pat: Like you said I have seen this sort of zombie parents who are barely present and that’s just like aah men I hope that doesn’t have to be me one day

Aussie Firebug: Exactly it is a big motivator for me for sure. I know we’ve spoken a little about it before but tell us a little bit about your sweat Part. How long have you been blogging for and what do you hope to achieve with it

Pat: I have been blogging since January this year and in terms of a goal I am not sure really I won’t be creative you know I can get a larger readership but to be honest I am really happy just kind of plugging away writing my blog posts. Some people seem interested a few other people seem quite annoyed at what I write but that \s ok too because it creates a bit of interesting discussion and yeah that’s about I am happy if I don’t get rated for the time being. it does kind of give me a bit of… it is one of this things that I am happy to do right now even though it actually sucks money out of my life to be honest I have definitely spent more just setting up the blog than I will probably make on the blog but just a sort of freedom to create something myself and invest time in something which the primary motivator isn’t just to make a few dollars and has been very empowering and it’s been quite enjoyable and I just have to keep doing that.

Aussie Firebug: Awesome stuff I know with my blog I did it sort of as an accountability thing and making sure my strategies made sense and they weren’t crazy and the response has been awesome like I have had so many people get in contact with me, like solicitors and like seasoned investors that I can meet up with any time and ask questions about and have people critic my strategy and I can have those how are you doing this and you should be doing this and it is awesome and I like passing content and making these podcasts for people to listen to its so much fun and like you said I have put in way more money than I will probably make but it is not about that it is about expressing myself and holding myself accountable really.

Pat: Definitely

Aussie Firebug: So if there is any listeners out there wanting to get in contact with you what’s the best place they can reach you

Pat: The best place is obviously first of all read my website kind of see what I am all about

Aussie Firebug: What is the address to your website?

Pat: its lifelongshuffle.com and I am usually pretty responsive in there and I try to answer every comment personally that is posted and I have obviously the privilege of doing that because I don’t have an extremely huge readership so I can keep up with all the comments that re posted. Otherwise I spend quite a bit of time on the FI Australia edit so if you kind of post there and I find what you posted interesting I will be able to respond to it or you can message me I don’t know is it good my username Pat the shuffler on reddit.

Aussie Firebug: Yeah sure. FI Australia is an awesome phone board I always go there myself. And just the lastly, if you had to give one bit of advice for a new shuffler what would it be

Pat: I think the best thing I could say is that you will learn very quickly just like what we were discussing before how much all that other shit just doesn’t matter. All the consumable shit, all the latest gadgets all the fancy clothes all of the fancy hand bags kind of showing of to your friends. Getting the sort of ritual respect coffee everyday like none of it matters at all and its quickly going to deplete you of all your money and eventually you will deplete all of your happiness as well but that none of that stuff really brings you real happiness and it just takes time away from you to really going to find what brings you really happiness in this world. So the best piece of advice I can give is just start cutting things away that don’t matter and you will quickly realize how much they don’t matter

Aussie Firebug: What’s to live by Part what’s to live by you guys if you have enjoyed this podcast and you want me to make more be sure to drop me a comment and ratings on iTunes just search ozzyfirebag on iTunes and you will find I am also SoundCloud at www.soundcloud.com/aussie-firebug. Show notes of this episode can be found on my website at www.aussiefirebug.com. Pat it’s been an ab solute pleasure of mine thanks for coming on the show.

Pat: No worries thanks for having me mate, I was definitely looking forward to it and I always look forward to your next podcast.

Aussie Firebug: Ok… too kind mate

Pat: Bye buddy.

Aussie Firebug: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Aussie firebug podcast, the financial independence podcast for Australians where I interview clever people who have already reached or are on their way to financial independence. Our guest today is Steven Ryan, a 31 year old property investor who at age 29 became the 2015 investment property magazine – investor of the year. Steven has been featured on such programs as ABC 7.30, property investor magazine, real estate talk and many more. His net worth is well into seven figures and has reached financial independence but there is no plan to stop working any time soon. Steven, welcome to the podcast –

Steven: Hey, thanks for having me –

Aussie Firebug: Ah, I guess we will just begin ah, with your story – um, and how you managed to be in the position that you are in today, starting from the beginning.

Steven: Okay, ah well – starting from the beginning – born is a pretty small town in the south Wales ah- was ah, had different views to the norm I guess um – well to figure out where that would sort of eventuate into something that was productive and useful – ah, so a lot of experiments as a teenager and as a young adult, ah trying to figure out what I wanted to do with career and stuff – ah eventually I ended up falling into graphic design job – ah, wasn’t as challenging or interesting as I had hoped, so I spent a few years trying to figure out what I actually wanted to do with my life and in the process I discovered the whole property investing and just wealth creation – and personal development ah, sides of life. Ah, a few years later after buying a few properties, I quit my job – started a mortgage [00.01.33] business to help other investors and ah, that kinda brings us today in a nut show, am sure we’ll talk in more data about some of those bits – that’s the short story.

Aussie Firebug: Okay cool Steve – so um, is it Steven or Steve – which do you prefer to be called?

Steven: ah by first name, whatever you want –

Aussie Firebug: Um, am going to call you Steve –

Steven: Okay perfect-

Aussie Firebug: Um, so when you say, um, a few, ah different opinions to the norm, what do you mean by that when you growing up?

Steven: Ah, I’ve always been inquisitive um, and always been willing to challenge conventions ah – so I ah, I think the earliest I can recall that happening is ah, when I was being brought along to Sunday schools – a very young man, ah, I had a lot of questions to ask that I, wasn’t getting sufficient answers to – um, through out of to high school I had a lot of ah, head butt moments with teachers as well – not out of ah, an interest in causing trouble, but just to – to try to understand things better and question everything, so I’ve always been curious um, am very learning driven – big passion for science as well so, um most people would describe me ah – you know me quite well as a complete [00.02.39] but then I would follow it up saying what a pretty nice guy, so um – very unconventional in just about every aspect of ah, my life I would say.

Aussie Firebug: Nothing wrong with that –

Steven: Yea well, if you keep doing what everybody else does, you get the same results and ah –

Aussie Firebug: That’s exactly right – that’s exactly right –

Steven: Yeah –

Aussie Firebug: Um, so you spoke a bit of – so you got into property investment when, even investing is not really, you know a property investing – most want to spend their money on .

Steven: Yeah –

Aussie Firebug: Do you – just walk us through a little bit of that –

Steven: Yes sure, um – I’ve always been pretty reasonable with money in terms of ah, you know saving ah, and not spending too crazily. There was a time ah, I was about 25, I believe and my parents out of nowhere ah, announced they were getting divorced and um, that was so be it – but ah, the interesting thing is that I’d remembered them working their tales of their tired old life time – ah working very, very long hours and they had barely anything to show for it when they divided assets; so ah, that kind of got me thinking – they’ve done something wrong here, they’ve really stuffed up – I mean, they did what they could with the information that they had but, for them to have worked so hard for so long and to end up with so little made me realize that something had gone wrong there and I sort of decided at that point, I didn’t want to follow in the same footsteps – that I would educate myself ah about, you know making my money and also hanging on to it and multiplying it, and that got me on the path of learning how to invest um – so it was probably early to mid 20s and ah, I’ve been saving money that entire time – managed to head on an overseas trip to Europe – I think about 22 and [00.04.32] of bags to take free breakfast for lunch and things like that – so I returned with a little bit of savings and ah, then the parents’ divorce, so I continued to save a little bit and bought the first property, I think I was 25 – yeah, it would have been 2010 October –

Aussie Firebug: And where did you buy and how much for?

Steven: I bought in city – I paid three hundred and thirteen thousand for a nice little one bedroom apartment ah, well within my budget, I could have spent quite a bit more, but I wanted to be sensible and that was the, I guess the purchase that got things rolling – but at that stage I wasn’t ah, too well read on investment. I knew that buying the property was good, I’d done my sums and realized that even if properties just [00.05.14] information, I’d need pay rises emulate that were more than realistic for me just to keep up with the higher purchase price – so it made sense and then from there I sort of put the head down and really got into learning how to invest and create wealth.

Aussie Firebug: And how did you manage um, putting the deposit down for that- um 25 years of age, you know three hundred and that’s quite a large sum of money –

Steven: yes –

Aussie Firebug: a deposit, um did you go too uni or you were working full time ?

Steven: I studied, I studied for a number of years out of high school – um, I think that probably I had been working fulltime, maybe three years before that, so I probably had saved about 10 or so grand a year since starting full time work – I was ah, certainly a pretty typical teenager in terms of ah, the drinking habits and tracing girls and what not but, I was ah little bit unconventional when we went out for drinks ah- I would bring ah, a little [00.06.00] [00.06.01] with some red wine in my jacket rather than spending ah, super amount of drinks over the bar {laughter} – and so I managed to save the deposit while still having a typical ah, teenage [00.06.08] [00.06.09], yeah –

Aussie Firebug: Do you know what, do you know what? I did the exact same thing but I–

Steven: {laughter}

Aussie Firebug: I did it with um, like ah – like or something.

Steven: Yeah, okay –

Aussie Firebug: Or like ah a little flask –

Steven: Yeah –

Aussie Firebug: I dint have wine but, such ah, such at once as well. True story –

Steven: Yeah, I ah – I never did so –

Aussie Firebug: actually you know why – because I remember this now; the girl would give me funny looks every time I went to the bar and ordered coke and I was getting drunker and drunker and she must have thought, this guy has a flask and I was really sneaky –I went to the toilets and everything and the security followed me in and he found me doing it and he kicked me out. [00.06.50 – 00.06.53]

Steven: The things you do on the way to financial {laughter} independence, I can say that I wasn’t repaid [00.06.58 – 00.07.00], tables have turned.

Aussie Firebug: Alright, you save some money, full time work – you are a pretty good saver, were you still live at home when you bought this – ?

Steven: No, I moved out of home at 19 to come and study in [00.07.08] so I would grade up in [00.07.09] ah so, I was pretty smart with the money I had [00.07.12] in the whole time and lived to a typical [00.07.15] [00.07.16] or shouldn’t say – I saved quite a bit for how much I was actually earning – I should also add at the same time as studying, I was doing some freelance design work as well as I had started music [00.07.35] online and a few other things – I had a little bit of income coming through and also YouTube channel so, I was able to add a little bit of additional savings ah, just through those –ah, so throughout my studies I was actually already accumulating a small amount of money –

Aussie Firebug: You’re hustling – you’re side hustling everywhere –

Steven: I didn’t realize I was hustling but ah yeah, I guess that was what I was doing at the time.

Aussie Firebug: Ah, very good. [00.07.58 – 00.08.00] to be honest because I saved a hip of money but I was still living with my parents – that was the number one biggest advantage all I had, but you know – to say that – you said, close to you know, $10000 a year when you’ve moved out of home and living in Sydney that’s – that’s um, very good, very good savings indeed. Um so, you bought the house um, and you continued down the property path [00.08.20 – 00.08.24]?

Steven: Um, look at the stage that I bought the first place, I just knew that the numbers might [00.08.31] ah – I dint really know the intricacies investing property or anything else, so I was looking at all sorts of options – but am very analytically minded and it’s not very hard to without a calculator and do some sums and say the advantage of property ah, the fact that you able to leverage 80 – 90% means that your dollars go quite far, ah looking historically at ah, you know house prices and also factors that affect the [00.09.00] of supply and demand. I felt pretty comfortable that property was something that I could do well with – um, so I spent probably the next 3 or so years saving like [00.09.08] at the same time researching like an obsessed crazy person um, so devoured dozens of books, went to made-up, red forums, listened to videos – all kinds of stuff to educate myself – I watched [00.09.21] and researched everywhere I could think of in a stryer and eventually settled on more property as the way for me to go to fill that foundation ah, [00.09.29] second investment property – first investment property, second property September 2013 – I paid for 60, 100 dollars for that one – um using equity from the first property. So I took 3 years effectively to [00.09.47 -00.09.51] but I was able to unlock that – ah, the same time I was saving like crazy as well but I didn’t actually need to use savings for that second purchase, that was all equity – ah for like [00.10.03] again six months later, I took equity out of the second property – I [00.10.06] very well on that one – for the third and you know the story goes on so –

Aussie Firebug: So how many properties do you currently have?

Steven: Ah, I’ve got four at the moment – total value about 2.6 – 2.7 million somewhere around that point.

Aussie Firebug: And do you keep your loan to value ratio, is everything under 80%?

Steven: At the moment yep – additionally when I was [00.10.23], ah generally I was borrowing 88% – capitalizing that is mortgage insurance up to about 90%, ah if you try to accumulate assets – it kinda makes sense to use as much of other peoples’ money as you can. It allows you to [00.10.35 – 00.10.38] in case of emergencies and also just to return on your initial capital is much ah, [00.10.43]. So that initial portfolio – I think a total of my own savings period ah, maybe [00.10.53] dollars of cash has gone into that and the rest of that [00.10.57] come equity, so that’s seventy or two thousand dollars is now controlling a portfolio many times its original value ah, and I have seen at least a 10 times return on that initial capital as well so –

Aussie Firebug: What’s the rental [00.11.10] [00.11.11] across your properties?

Steven: Um, yes a good question – ah the very first place that I bought ah to live in which now I don’t occupy, that’s in the early 7%, ah so getting a pretty good rent return on that one that I have earned is ah, six and a half [00.11.21] years. This is the benefit for not turning properties over quickly to its [00.11.27] – you get appreciation value, you also find that rents tend to track up but the amount of mortgage you own doesn’t increase – so second property ah, ran five and a half [00.11.32] I would say – ah the third property, low fives – the fourth property, very high fours. So overall ah, they are just making me a few grand a year after [00.11.39 – 00.11.41] you know facted in and the tax returns gone through – ah but my initial goal for those was always focus on capital growth, ah which I believe over time there will be an appreciation value and the rents will take along as well which is what am saying now.

Aussie Firebug: So the, the portfolio in total is cash flow positive?

Steven: Yes – first of all, [00.12.05 – 00.12.08] a few thousand dollars of you know – its neither here nor there really, it’s a bit of pocket money ah, yeah.

Aussie Firebug: And am well aware of the strategy of pulling equity to buy the next one as I have done it myself for earning three properties, um the, the biggest thing I have with that, what is your – what is the angle because obviously you are very um, you know a lot of equity – you know ah, ah they are worth so much money and um, you got loans on them and they’ve given you a little bit of you know a few thousand dollars a year in positive cash flow – are you planning to ah, wide until the rent gets to a certain ah point until it’s you know an income or are you widing for a property to reach a certain point you might sell one and pay off the debts off the other – what’s sort of your strategy there?

Steven: Yes, so – if I hadn’t gone along the path I thought I would be which is stay as a [00.12.59] employee keep [00.13.01] along, ideally I would have continued to accumulate properties – get you know a dozen or so, um under my name and at some point in the future 10 -20 years later through one or two property cycles – sell some and pay the others off completely and then have a [00.13.20 – 00.13.21] properties all producing me rental income – but since I moved into business and the income increased somewhat, so am actually now going to moving into property development ah, just starting small initially but taking some of the equity that is in existing portfolio – using that to do small projects and then keeping everything I’ve planned to sell along the way, ah those developments will be cash flow positive and then take that chunk of equity and sky up into a solely larger project then [00.13.43 – 00.13.45] – so ah, very quickly I would have turned cash flow neutral to fairly cash flow positive at the same time as being able to hang on to those properties.

Aussie Firebug: Great – do you have any shares?

Steven: Ah yeah I do – ah, I’ve got a [00.13.57] number on ah – in the US. It’s not a portfolio I would recommend for the faint hearted ah, goes against most conventionally investing wisdom – ah, that’s a little bit more of my high risk, high return money, so it’s not the typical um, you know index [00.14.17] portfolio – ah, a very, very, very heavy ah, [00.14.24] especially relating to artificial intelligence, ah machine learning- so ah, Teslar is my biggest holding and make up about over 70% of my portfolio value –

Aussie Firebug: That’s been doing pretty well in the last couple of years, hasn’t it?

Steven: Yeah, Teslar has done reasonably well, um – I still feel that they’ve got one less ah, digit in the value of the shares compared to where they ultimately get to over the next decade. But I accept that it is pretty high risk company, but I also try to invest quite um, ethically as well so, there is a reason for investing in that company outside of trying to return a profit but just to keep things moving in a good direction as far as ah, renewable transportation.

Aussie Firebug: Yeah, and is it more fun investing like with the tech companies in the US, it’s not your bread and butter you know what you’re going to live off for the rest of your life or-

Steven: No, like honestly if my entire portfolio goes to 0 or we have JFC number 2 which will happen at some point in time I’ll be fine with that. I’m pretty risk adverse and it might sound almost unexpected for me to say but I think that shares are one of the highest risk investments that you could possibly make. Even with a high level of education, unless you are looking at a really long term hold period. And so my idea is, my portfolio is to hold for some time but I won’t be too perturbed if I see large fluctuations in the value over there. Property is the bread and butter and also business is kind of making up the main chunks there and shares are just something to diversify a little bit and see what happens there.

Aussie Firebug: You know you might have triggered a few in the financial independents crowd. Do you mean picking stock, picking shares individually or you know because majority of the people here in this space are all about those index funds right like you’ve totally read behind those lines –

Steven: I think index funds are fantastic but the unique option that we have in Australia, if we can learn to understand what drives our property values which is effectively land values rather than the building sitting on them. Given the nature of our market, that the huge difference between supply and demand excluding a few particular niche areas and types of dwellings like off the plan apartments in the eastern city CBDs. We have been underbuilding housing in Australia for a very long time we’re also one of the highest net worth countries in the world. So for somebody that’s sort of starting out or at a stage where they’re trying to accumulate capital and increase their net worth. It’s very hard to make an argument for shares having even close to a hope of competing with property assuming that you are willing to leverage property at 80-90% and that you’re not able to do much lending on shares above say a 50% land to value ratio. Keeping in mind also if you do leverage on shares you do have the risk there of something like a margin call which doesn’t occur with properties. So as I said I’m very analytical on that side of things and I think it’s great to have you know the best holdings in different kinds of investments but I’m pretty confident that my property returns are going to be multiple [00:18:01] above my shares even if I went to do something like just grab the old index funds. The other thing too is that I’m pretty impatient, you’ll certainly see good long term results on shares especially index funds are really the way to go then to be pretty conservative but it’s hard to match all highly leveraged assets.

Aussie Firebug: So what you’re basically saying is you see in the future, and we’re sort of skipping ahead because I wanted to delve in into this area a bit later on but [00:18:33]. Property returns are going to blow shares out of the water in terms of returns over the next 5/10 years? Is that –?

Steven: In terms of cash on cash returns so I would suspect that shares would have just a better chance if not more of probability in terms of percentage growth to up before property in Australia but we’re not factoring in the leverage so [Voiceover]

Aussie Firebug: That’s a key point as well. I always hear that, look and you know I’m in both camps here. I’ve got 3 properties but I’m up to about 70k in index funds now so you know if either one goes up I’m really happy. But I do think that whenever someone is saying you know shares beats you know the last ten years shares have out-performed property. Yeah maybe a dollar vs. dollar percentagewise the have but they’re completely ignoring the whole. Like I think that best thing about investing in property which is the leverage, so yes I agree with you on that point.

Steven: Yes and also we do have to be very mindful to factor in the risks as well if you are levering shares you’ve got the probability of a margin call and keep extra capital in reserve. Those kind of things as well say, as I said I’m quite conservative and so I’m not somebody who would be comfortable to leveraging into shares at all. For fear of having the margin call in the worst case scenarios so I’d be putting a dollar into shares if I double that I make two dollars whereas if I put a dollar into property I get 10 from the bank and if I you know say that the same doubling there I’ve turned 1 dollar into 10 so I get a ten times return. It’s kind of hard to argue with that.

Aussie Firebug: Sure, alright one of the – I want to move into – for those listening Steve is also the director of Interstellar Finance who are actually a finalist in 2016 Australian Mortgage awards. So is it your actual company Steve?

Steven: Yes it is my company, yes I founded and I’m the director yup.

Aussie Firebug: So can you tell us a little bit about Interstellar in general, how it came to be and what you’re looking to do in that space?

Steven: Yeah absolutely, so I rather got obsessed with the investing thing and so I could talk about and think about and do was property investment related that kind of happens I think when you see the value in something that can have a big impact on your life. So it got to a point where I had a lot of people asking for help and guidance and ideas and this that and the other. It took a while for me to – I guess for the penny to drop but I realized that I was in a job I didn’t really enjoy. I had been fired from my first and nearly lost my second as well so I was clearly not a good employee. And I found a way to transition from that design career to a full-time mortgage broker thanks to an incredibly generous and selfless mentor who changed my thinking and my life ultimately. So I transitioned across a few years ago to fulltime mortgage broker and just 100% focused on helping people who want to build wealth for themselves. Whether that’s people just starting out with property or people that are a little bit further along the path and don’t really do much lending for an occupiers, it’s really a pretty strong investor focus and I get a lot of joy out of having people come to me and discussing what their long term goals are and putting a bit of a road map together on how they might be able to achieve this.

Aussie Firebug: So you do strategy as well as outsourcing and finance?

Steven: Yes, I mean the strategy it’s not rocket science to be honest it’s really just a matter of looking at what’s somebody’s goal, what’s their timeframe, what are they trying to achieve, what are their current resources, what changes might occur you know [00:22:32] when the goal is achieved. And how can we best give them the best opportunity to achieve or come as close as they can as achieving their goals. So it’s really just a matter of looking at the numbers and putting a bit of a plan together in terms of if we can do this, this and this then this is where we will get to. Because a lot of people I think one of the mistakes that people make, maybe not so many of your listeners but in general in terms of financial goals is they might think I’m going to invest in you know some shares or invest in a property or you know buy some silver. But they don’t really know why, what the end goal is. Maybe one of my main goals is really to help people clarify exactly what they are trying to achieve but more importantly why? If you don’t have a strong why you’re not going to have the drive and willingness to do what it takes. You’ll talk yourself out of things, you’ll procrastinate, and you’ll let fear prevent you from acting. So my real job is to help people clarify what they’re trying to achieve then kind of give them the resources and empower them to actually take some action.

Aussie Firebug: Excellent, I think that’s so important as well. Clear road map, what you’re trying to achieve, why you are trying to achieve it. Rather than I should just buy a property because people have been telling me that’s what smart people do and I want to be smart, which is funny enough. The reason why I started to buy property but then I read ‘Rich Dad Poor Dad’ and the rest is history. But still –

Steven: A lot of people start and it’s better than doing nothing, but it’s definitely worth going why? And it really has to be tied to something more important than just a financial goal too. Because if you don’t know what that result is going to bring you in terms of your lifestyle, how you can give to others, how you can have freedom it’s meaningless. Like nobody cares if you’re worth 2 million dollars or 10 million dollars or if your passive income is xyz, you really need to tie that into something more meaningful than just a number. What’s it going to do for you, how is it going to change your lifestyle, how can it help other people and impact other lives in a big way as a result of achieving that goal.

Aussie Firebug: Now just while we’re talking about this I guess it a good segue so you could pull up stumps right now, you sold everything that you’d owned you’d have enough money to live passively for the rest of your life, is that correct?

Steven: Yeah a fairly moderate lifestyle but one I’ve certainly lived the majority of my life, no problems yup.

Aussie Firebug: So, and it’s funny I’ll just let the audience in on a little story we had over email as I was trying to get Steve to – we were trying to book a time to do this podcast and Steve was emailing me back saying how flooded he was at work and how he just didn’t have any time to you know do the podcast and it was hard to get days and everything like that. And I just thought it was ironic that this is a guy that’s worth over a million dollars, 31 years of age could be financially independent right now, pull up stumps and basically leave as you said a moderate lifestyle but you’re working harder than ever mate. What’s the reason behind that and with the whole financial independence retire early, I want to put it to you, what’s your goal with property investing and does the ‘retire early’ bit in fire does that interest you whatsoever?

Steven: Good question there so what was the first question that we were covering off?

Aussie Firebug: I think it was just what’s your goal, what’s your ultimate goal? Why you doing property investing and I know you started business down but what –

Steven: And why I’m working so hard I guess in the meantime. Yeah I’m going to give that to kind of [00:26:12] let it sink so the reason why I’m working harder than ever now is because I absolutely love what I’m doing. I’m able to take people who are at a point where they are willing to make a potentially really important decision that can change their lives for the better. And be the catalyst for them actually making that change or taking that action or you know following up on that decision. And so I spring out of bed in the morning and I kind of get myself to stop doing what I’m doing in the evening because I know that I’m really having a big impact on people’s lives whether it’s one or two conversations we have here or there or even if they don’t end up really going down the property investment path. To plant a few ideas and seeds in their minds that can really change their thinking, their mindset, their outlook. Very rewarding and after being in business for a little while I start to hear the feedback coming from people that literally saying things like you know you have completely changed my life or the way that I think, you know I’m really grateful. So what I’m doing now is so rewarding I can’t think of anything else at this point of my life that I would rather be doing with my time. So that’s what keeps me doing what I’m doing, there’s no other reason behind it which is –it’s a great position to be in, being excited to get up and wishing you didn’t need to sleep so much so you could help more people –

Aussie Firebug: Can I just add to that as well, I’ve been to a lot of foreign seminars met a whole bunch of people that are multi-millionaires that run businesses and they do it because they love doing it. And it always annoys me, so many people just can’t accept or get over the fact that someone is worth so much money but they’re still working and it’s like you know they must be a con artiste. Why would they work if they’re worth? If their story was true why would they still be working? Yada, yada, yada. It’s like actually there’s people that exist that you know legitimately just do it for the love and yes it’s a business so you’ve got to make some sort of money I mean to keep the business functioning. They’ve got stuff they’ve got to pay, you know they’re not going to do it at a loss but essentially they are giving away their time for free. This people do exist and you can be in that position if you become financially independent. I just think a lot of people have never even considered the concept of financial independence jump to all sorts of conclusions for people that have walked the walk. And yeah they might charge a little fee you know for their wealth of information that they have, that they can’t get over that fact you know. It always comes back to that why would they still be working if they were worth so much money.

Steven: Yeah I think most commonly comes down to a few things, some people are – then they’re in a position in their own lives that they’re not happy or satisfied enough with they can’t understand why anybody given the choice to just throw it all in, you know just go sit on a beach and drink cocktails wouldn’t do so. Another part of that I think is many people aren’t willing to face the fact that they’re not where they want to be in their lives and they are the only ones to – who is responsible for that. So rather than go you know what if this person is doing this, why would they still be doing this and ask more questions and uncover that they are really passionate, they enjoy what they’re doing etc. They just make a decision without all the facts based on their own perspective rather than reality.

Aussie Firebug: So would it be fair to say, so you’re working a job you didn’t particularly like, would it be fair to say you were striving for a financial independence to escape that job?

Steven: Definitely a push to get out of there, to change my circumstances absolutely.

Aussie Firebug: And now that you’re in a business that you do like do you find that you your goals have now changed– considering you do you like your job as much as you do?

Steven: Yeah, well I guess my goal of getting out of my full time job, I walked free of that a couple of years ago. It’s probably going to go down as one of the more memorable days of my life; just having the freedom to say “see you later,” and just take control of my future. Yeah, the goals probably have changed a little bit and not so much what I’m trying to do which is just get some freedom and have a big impact on a lot of people’s lives which is really what’s pushing me, coming back to your earlier question of really my goals but I’ve come to realize that I have a lot more potential and capacity than I initially thought and every time I set what I feel as an extremely ambitious goal, at some in the future I realize it was actually a quite meager and well within my capacity so my goals don’t necessarily change, they just expand so you know, I initially had some financial goals which I exceeded well ahead of schedule so I reset those and reset those and now with the business, the same kind of thing; you know I had some goals for my first year or so in business in terms of how many people I could help and stuff like that and I shot past those so the goals really just– once I am confident and have the self-belief and the mindset and thinking to know that I could chase something more, I’ll just set a bigger goal to keep pushing and learning and growing and challenging and getting out of my comfort zone.

Aussie Firebug: Cool. Great. Now, I want to get in to some nitty and gritty stuff about the industry. So, you know, 2015 Property Investor of the year, you’re the founder and director of Interstellar Finance so you’re heavily in an industry that is such a hot topic at the moment, well it’s a hot topic nearly of every moment, but I really want to pick your brains over a few questions about the Australian housing market. So firstly, do you think Australia is in a housing bubble? Why- why not?

Steven: What’s a housing bubble?

Aussie Firebug: You tell me.

Steven: Well, we need to have a clear definition of what we’re referring to.

Aussie Firebug: Alright, let me rephrase that then. Do you think that– let’s be honest, it’s now one in Sydney because I don’t buy into the whole Australia is in a, you know unaffordable– that every place is unaffordable. It’s when people start hyping on about this, it’s 95%– they’re talking about Melbourne and Sydney, they’re not talking about anywhere else, if the price increases like Melbourne and Sydney have seen the last ten years or so, is it sustainable– do you see house and apartment prices coming down by 20-30% over the next five years?

Steven: So the sustainableness of the growth, or sustainability, if we’re talking in the last ten years, if we average that out then– I’ll say that in the last probably three or four years, definitely not sustainable. This is what we refer to as a property cycle. So you’ll have a period of little to no growth and then you’ll have a period of pretty strong growth year on year and then things will taper off, maybe correct a little bit then [00:33:27] and you’ll have again stagnation for quite a period of time and then again a process will push pretty rapidly for a few years and that seems to be a repeating cycle going back a century or more in Australia. I see at the moment, Sydney and Melbourne in particular are pretty much peek of the market, I wouldn’t be buying there as an investment unless I’ve got a view of 15-20 years or more. I stopped buying Sydney a number of years ago and moved my money to Brisbane. Apartments, I would not be touching off-the-plan apartments with a four million kilometer pole in the Gold Coast or Brisbane or Melbourne, perhaps even Sydney, there’s quite a large amount of supply, there’s quite a large number approvals still yet to commence construction and you’re asking for trouble with those types of investments but a savvy investor wouldn’t really be buying those anyway because you know, a brand new apartment, you’re paying the developers profit margin, they’re marketing fees, their advertising fees, their agent commissions. None of my clients, for example, are buying those types of things but definitely I caution to be yielded there. Outside of that, houses are a different kettle of fish: Sydney and Melbourne again I wouldn’t be buying houses there at this stage in the cycle. I think we’re pretty much done with the growth, I don’t have a crystal ball but there’s a very large market out there at the moment in many other capital cities around Australia at a much different stage of their property cycle so plenty of opportunities out there for people willing to do their research instead of get it from the news.

Aussie Firebug: So you don’t see any sort of crash happening?

Steven: Look, I don’t have a crystal ball, I can’t say for sure but I don’t see any triggers for you know, 10-20-30% reduction in prices in Australia; that would be unprecedented outside of a few anomalies like [00:35:19] towns in the history of real estate here. Even the GFC, the worst that we saw was about a 10% reduction which a year or two later, things had bounced back to where they were so I would have to say something orders of magnitude, bigger the GFC to have any reason to believe that would happen.

Aussie Firebug: Now, you’re such a great get guest for this question because you’re in the business of sourcing people loans, I personally– I’m a bit on the fence: look, I’m not too sure what’s going to happen but I think a major contributor to the spike in house prices in the last couple years, a major contributor for that has been record-low interest rates. Now, you being a mortgage broker, where do you see interest rates moving this and the next couple of years and basically I just want to know your opinion on that whole situation and also, is now a good time to fix your rate? Why or why not?

Steven: Good questions, good questions. As I say, my crystal ball isn’t perfect so take all with it a grain of salt. My gut feel is that we’re in for pretty low rates for the foreseeable future unless there’s major improvements in our economy overall, I can’t see reason for the Reserve Bank to be lifting rates; maybe we’ll get a quarter percentage or two here or there, nothing too substantial. Any much further out than a few years, I really can’t see that far but I do feel that we’re not likely to return to the rates that out parents perhaps experienced in you know, the early nineties or in a different era, a low inflation era. We’ve got the Reserve as an inflation target that we have now which has been pretty consistently maintained as well as so I’d be surprised if we see too much movement either way with rates. That being said, lenders are within their own rights to move their rates and change their margins as they please and they do have the power to do that. I won’t name names here but certainly a year or so ago, there was a very competitive price discount being offered by certain lenders to bring on new business and retain existing. I was seeing those same lenders now call back a lot of that lost profit by lifting rates here or there, some of them under the guides of [00:37:44] you know, and APRA wanting to slow investor lending. As far as fixing rates go, that’s a much more complicated decision than just fixing so you’ve got some certainty over right; there’s some implications there around what are your plans with that loan: are you building a portfolio or are you just an occupier, will you ever consider refinancing or moving, would you ever invest, will you ever want to access equity? I actually think this is my first loan on occupier property before I knew what I was doing; probably the most costly mistake I’ve ever made actually, came to about $50,000 in total from extra interest and a huge break fee when I realized that I had made a serious error of judgment because I didn’t know what I didn’t know at the time. What do I say– talk to your broker about that stuff. Make sure that they know what your plans are longer term and they can give you a bit more guidance as to whether or not it might make sense and also just think about the risks of fixing versus not. My lens is currently all variable and I plan to keep them that way unless I see very strong reason not to do, otherwise.

Aussie Firebug: Yeah, I am a fan of variable as well. I actually did write an article about fixed versus variable, just a shameless plug and for that article, I’ll put that in the show notes but yeah, I am I’m on the variable camp as well. I think there’s very rare moments in history where you actually fix your rate and you come out ahead. Like you said, it’s a different story– it depends on circumstances like if an interest rate hike is going to put you under water then you should probably fix but if you’ve got the capital and you got the buffer, I think that variable might be the better option 80-90% of the time like throughout Australian history or something, details like that and it also you know, like you said, if you’re an investor, you think you can’t withdraw equity out and like all that stuff but I’m a fan of variable. Now, on the– so you don’t foresee it going up too much, what about the federal reserve, the US Federal Reserve Act, their rate the other day, I think in the other week, and I immediately see on the internet, I think it was ANZ or maybe it was [00:40:04], but it’s one of them, upped their rate on investor loans which like you mentioned, the investor loans– the cash rate isn’t directly tied to– like the banks can set their interest rate whatever they want. Is there a correlation there and a lot of people are speculating that the Federal Reserve is going to up their rate again possibly three times by the end of the year, how do you see that playing out?

Steven: Yeah, so look there’s some correlation, not maybe as strong as many might believe. The raise for that lender who shall remain anonymous for fear of scaring people have other motivations as well to lifting those rates just do it with and proportion of investor lending growth on their loan books versus their own occupied growth so anything they can do to pull more capital in for their existing investor book and also deter people from bringing additional investor lending costs they’re doing at the moment. I think that there’ll be some influence you know, to fit those rates in the US; there’s a little bit of funding that the Australian lenders- at least many of them- get from the US as well but I can’t see it having a huge, huge impact and it’s really going to be you know, a little bit more down to local conditions but just on a plane earlier, you mentioned if a rate rise was going to put somebody under water then definitely worth fixing, I would say that if somebody has a loan and a single rate rise could put them under water, they should not have got a loan, it shouldn’t have been approved either. People need to be very mindful that their circumstances can change whether it’s change of household income, whether they can have injury or long period off work, all sorts of surprises and dramas can happen as well and it’s really important when people are taking on large amounts of debt that they have sufficient buffers and sufficient insurances or whatever they need to do to make sure that they can weather those kind of storms and not be blown around like a plastic bag in the wind when things change so that’s a really important point for your listeners to do well on whether you’re taking on an occupied mortgage or investing. It’s crazy not to retain a reasonable buffer of cash to cover living costs and expenses and surprises and rate changes so that you aren’t forced to sell at a bad time.

Aussie Firebug: Spoken like a great mortgage broker. That’s a good segue into my next question. You mentioned that everyone should have a buffer which I kind of agree with, fantastic advice. How have you seen the banks change their lending standards over the last few years that you’ve been in business? Has there been a big shift? If so, in what direction and how do you see it moving forwards because from what I read, it’s harder and harder to get a loan these days for an investment property.

Steven: Yeah, you’re reading fairly correctly. The timing of starting my business was pretty much in line with the beginning of the very intense tightening on lending policies so APRA has basically been in the ear of all the lenders in Australia telling them they need to pull their [00:43:23] up a little bit and that’s had a very, very large impact on mainly people– unfortunately not the right folks to really hurt, but people that are starting out and people on those low to middle incomes who have an existing mortgage or are looking at doing some investing to get ahead so up until those changes started to come through you know 18 or so months ago, it continued to get tighter and tighter. Somebody on a pretty reasonable sort of median income in Australia could start to put up a bit of a nest egg for themselves and get the ball rolling whereas now it’s become extremely challenging whereas previously many lenders were looking at your repayments on existing loans that you may have: basically at what you’re actually repaying and then a small buffer on top of that to factor in a couple of rate rises. Generally now loans that you have elsewhere and a proposed loan are being assessed at about 7.5% interest and are being assessed usually over a 25-year loan time. So we would have to see– I don’t even know how many a quarter percent interest rate rises for rates to get to that, probably talking 16 or 20. So now the lenders are effectively factoring in the Reserve Bank or themselves passing on you know, a dozen or more rate increases and saying can you afford to pay that? If you can’t, no loan for you. So it’s definitely become a lot tougher. It’s made things very challenging from my perspective as well but you know, it comes with the territory. We do have record-low interest rates at the moment and so it is sensible for lenders to be mindful they won’t stay here forever, yeah.

Aussie Firebug: I think it’s a good thing, do you think it’s a good thing?

Steven: I think so. There’s probably better ways to go about it but it’s a very complicated issue. The thing that’s very unfortunate is the people that it’s affecting are the people that it should be affecting least and that’s people on those lower and middle incomes who are now either unable to get a foot on the ladder or have thought that they were doing the right thing by paying their off as quickly as they could under the impression that I could you know, refinance it and increase their loan later you know, use that money for renovation or for a buffer and now many of those people are stuck. It’s not necessarily the best– yeah, many folks have got the short end of the stroll there. I think lenders certainly have to be responsible and generally they are with their lending as well. It’s a shame that sort of a third party needs to step in and decide what policies they’re able to implement in terms of how they’re assessing lender payments and things like that because it’s bringing the lenders more and more in line with each other and it’s getting closer to the point where it’s just like what flavor of vanilla would you like? You know, you can have yellow vanilla or the red vanilla or– there’s very little choice, I mean differentiation between the lender policies now which means less choice with consumers and it also means that the larger banks can use their resources to crush their small competitors which means less competition so…

Aussie Firebug: Interesting because most people won’t have even thought about that from that perspective but it is interesting to hear what you have to say. Do you think– so you mentioned that the banks are now calculating all loans on about 7.5% say you know, “if you can’t pay it back when it’s at 7.5% we’re not going to give you a loan,” which I think is a good thing. Do you think there’s going to be a point where a household simply cannot service a loan and in your professional view, do you think Melbourne and Sydney are close to reaching that point if current trends continue the way they’re going with prices rising, how far away is it because you know I, and I’ll bring up an example: my sister and her partner were looking for a house a few years ago in Melbourne and are both professionals working full time earning good money and like some of the houses that their friends were buying, it was just– the loans on them were at outrageous and you know, they crunched the numbers, they did their due diligence and you know, a few– a 1-2% interest rise here maybe if one of the– her or her husband lost their job, you know they’d be underwater very quickly like it was getting to a point where all their friends are you know, getting these enormous loans but they’re so close to– they’re so on the edge of something bad happening that it’s I think, and you’re going to know more than I will because you’re approving people’s loans all the time that at some point, you just– the household simply does not have the income to support a loan.  Are we anywhere near that point in specifically Sydney and Melbourne?

Steven: Look, Sydney and Melbourne, you need an above-average income to get a below-average house at this point in time; that’s just the nature of the property cycle. I think there’s a big gap between what people could afford to be paying, this is what a lender will give them assuming that their household expenditure is reasonable. If a lender is assessing your repayments at approximately double what they are or close to, there’s still quite a bit of room to breathe but that’s a very different issue from the fact that people who are taking out loans that they’re going to be slaves to their jobs for another 40 years just to repay them on an occupied property. They may well be able to make the repayments but the penalty they pay in terms of their lifestyle over the next two or three or four decades is a bit ridiculous at this point in time. I would be suggesting that if people are looking at getting home in somewhere like Sydney or Melbourne, to think how can they actually multiply their money now at other markets and other investment classes and bring it back into Sydney next time when they’re not going to be competing with crazy people that have been it missing out and missing out and missing out because it’s– the median price just about everywhere in Sydney now is seven figures. That’s a very long commitment; you’re going to end up paying about three times the amount back to the bank over the lifetime of the loan but a lot of people trying to keep up with the giants who don’t know any better, and we’re saying this right now: just about everybody buying homes in Sydney and Melbourne right now are making a decision that it’s going to have big– probably negative consequences for them in terms of their lifestyle for many decades to come because there are no other option.

Aussie Firebug: I know it’s crazy but surely there’s a point– you know it reaches a point where the household income just simply cannot afford to pay back a loan of a certain you know magnitude–

Steven: Well definitely beyond that point for the typical household in Sydney but given that we have extremely low levels of stock- same for Melbourne- the people that are competing for property now aren’t a typical household, they are done and dusted, they’ve been on the sidelines for a year or two. People who are competing now are people that have additional resources, higher incomes, already on the property ladder, have help from mom and dad, are downsizers so in terms of affordability for them, I think that there’s still a little bit of a room to go but in terms of affordability for a wider audience, definitely not there but given that we have such a shortage of supply and such a high demand, I won’t be surprised if the process was to continue rising throughout the rest of this year before they taper off and maybe come back a little. But from there, I think things are going to be flat for quite some time. I don’t say prices continuing to move like this for many more years to come, I think it will be very flat for quite a while.

Aussie Firebug: Yeah. Only time will tell.

Steven: That’s correct.

Aussie Firebug: Best advice to someone trying to reach financial independence in today’s time?

Steven: Educate yourself and learn from people that have done what you are trying to achieve and forget about the input from everybody else. I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is not educating themselves and not learning from people that can help them so if you want to learn how to you know, retire early from your job, is it better to talk to your colleagues who haven’t retired early or find somebody that has retired early and ask how did you do it? You’ll find that people that have had some form of success however you define that in life generally are quite generous with their time and advice and if you can find a mentor that’s also willing to spend a little bit of time to help you to recommend some resources: books, courses, seminars and to change your thinking, I think that will have the biggest impact on your life. And don’t get your investment advice from the media; their role is to sell advertisements, not give you an unbiased and accurate reflection of what’s going on. So self-education and learning from people that have walked the path, I think they’re the big tips.

Aussie Firebug: Fantastic, and was there anything else that you wanted to add or comment that we didn’t speak about in the podcast?

Steven: Actually yeah, there is one other thing to add in the mix. If you’re really, really adamant on becoming financially independent, business is definitely going to be the most effective way to get you there so I mentor of mine, my mortgage broker actually while I was investing said to me a while ago, “Steven, your biggest limiting factor is going to be your income. There’s a pretty low ceiling in your industry. Maybe you should think about business.” And at that stage, the thought had never occurred to me. Fast forward a few years and I now have started a business that’s certainly paying the bills and I think that if people are really interested in financial independence at retirement, early in particular, plugging away at a pay-cagey job you know year after year and buying your index funds stuff will certainly get you there earlier than most but if you really want to add some fuel to the fire and accelerate things, it’s well worth looking into business.

Aussie Firebug: Great. Great perspective from someone that’s done it. Anyone– if someone was to get in contact with you, where can they find you?

Steven: They can find me on a property chat forum or on my website, just Goggle Steven Ryan Investor or Mortgage Broker, I’m sure you’ll find me somehow. I’m happy to have a chat to anybody if they’d like to have a bit of a look at what their options are in terms of investing but other than that, I’d say if anyone’s curious to learn a bit more about the property stuff in particular, just head over to the www.propertychat.com.au the AU forum. There’s tons of people there with great amount of experience happy to share their thoughts and ideas and answer your questions and that could fill a lot of the blanks in for you.

Aussie Firebug: Right, I’ll put a link in the show notes guys to Steve’s profile on property chat and stuff like that and his website so you can find him quite easily. Alright, great. If you enjoy these podcasts and want me to make more make sure you drop me a comment in writing on iTunes, just search for Aussie Firebug on iTunes and you’ll find me. Also on Sound Cloud at www.soundcloud.com/aussie-firebug. A transcript and show notes of this episode can be found on my website at www.aussiefirebug.com. Thanks again for your time Steven.

Steven: My pleasure. Thanks for having me and keep doing a great work.

Aussie Firebug: Thanks, will do. Cheers mate.

Steven: Cheers